• simon

    Gayle
    Let's put all things aside here as pertains to this latest prorogation and get a straight reply from you regarding Chretien's prorogation during the Somalia Scandal and again with Adscam/Sheila Fraser's damning report.
    Are you implying that accountability was not an issue at those given times?
    Was Chretien acting in the best interests of democracy when he implemented these prorogations while avoiding unwanted negative publicity.
    Why the two tier(no comment vs outrage) response from the MSM,NDP, Accademia,Poli Protest Crowd etc.?
    I'm amusedly confused…what's the difference?

  • rosie_3

    The reason that I see the NDP and the Liberals are so tied up in knots over the proroguing of parliament is that the common cense laws; that need to be passed without the senate gutting them; will be passed. Canadians of all stripes will have the Conservatives to thank for it. The Liberals and NDP’s will be seen as the partisan roadblocks to good governance that they are. The rank and file of the NDP and the Liberals want tough on crime laws, the NDP Justice minister of Manitoba was on the air last week complaining that this provinces government keeps begging parliament to pass tougher laws. He should be begging the national NDPers to listen to the people instead of trying to steal power.

  • Bec

    Gayle, my comment, was NOT to you and responding to anything you say in the same condescending way that you approach others, is simply not my style and an impossible behaviour curve for most to achieve but especially, I haven't the interest .

  • tedbetts

    Someday, I think I might like to visit you in your world, CS. It sounds interesting. Interesting how a 15% collapse in the polls means the Conservatives are surging, a climb of 5% by the Liberals means they are dead, the Liberals surging ahead of all the other federalist alternatives means they are double dead in Quebec, almost catching up to the Conservative war machine in fundraising and increasing donors by 7X in a year means they can't find Canadians willing to donate, and over 50% of Canadians opposing prorogation means no one cares and the Conservatives are winning the spin game.

    Does Christmas fall in July where you live? Does it rain on cloudless days? And snow only when the temperature rises above 25 degrees? Do the Leafs win the Stanley Cup year after year?

  • kenn2

    First, the public fuss is not about prorogation per se, it is about THIS prorogation. Big difference.

    So all the talk about who else prorogued way back when is simply avoiding the issue. Likewise, the GG's powers are exactly what they should be.

  • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ Canadiansense

    Ted,

    Do you know michael mann? He had a similar problem. Ignored REAL evidence and only used data to tell his story. Remember the hockey stick graph that Gore made millions from?

    You thesis about a few Polls mean something and ignoring the 2000-2008 elections results is hysterical. Official Polls always beat unofficial Polls. Sorry Teddy more bad news for Liberals.

    In Neverland relying on spinning a few Polls are very important. I accept it you can't deal with the realworld.

    Since 2000 the LPOC has lost ground to EVERY single party. The last Liberal (Chretien majority) was the result of a Pefect storm. Quebec and Ontario gave the Liberals their majority.

    Those DAYS are over. Don't blame Canadians, Quebec has reduced the Liberals from 36 to 14 in QC. (ouch)

    In Ontario (100 out of 103 seats with over 51% of POP) in 2008 the Liberals were reduced to Toronto stronghold. Liberals managed to hold on to 38 seats at 33.8%.

    Without the Big donations from Bay Street the party has begun it deathspiral.
    Here is a link with graphs and pictures. I know this is painful but Janine Krieber was honest about the Liberal party and the dustbin of history.
    http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/2010/01/armag

  • kenn2

    Ted and a few others like you roaming the blogs – you are all so holier than thou from the sidelines . How easy it is to criticize from your lofty perch without ever gotten your own hands dirty.

    It's extremely easy to snipe from the sidelines, thanks. About as easy as it is for you.

    Governing is a publicly accountable job, in a democracy. There are places where the Dear Leader works without accountability, for the greater good of citizens. They're called dictatorships.

  • roughandtumble

    as usual in your brusmit alias you don't disappoint with nonsense. The senate is going to have answer to A MINORITY PARLIAMENT. That's the reality.

  • roughandtumble

    Mervin mervin….I suppose you think the current polls still spell majority goverment for your boy. Another poll out today suggests that his Haiti heroics are not being looked at very favorably. He has lied and cheated his way and now is being held accountable. Those are the real facts.

  • roughandtumble

    Polls polls and more polls tell the real story these days and it isn't looking good fro your boy mervin. Prorogation is on peoples minds every time he appears in public. That's how well the opposition has framed that issue. The fact that there are ?toriescrawling all over the place trying to downplay the issue means it hurts big time. The Afghan coverup will come back with a flourish. In any event Iggy is standing by watching the self destruction unfold and will pick up the pieces vote by vote.

  • roughandtumble

    Ted….CS has multiple aliases and use a bunch of them on Nik Nanos' site. ask him about informed 1 and brusmit and mrs brusmit.

    Same silliness from him goes on there as well.

  • Gayle

    Chretien did not prorogue during the Somalia inquiry, so I don't know why you brought that up.

    At the time he prorogued before the leadership convention, his reasoning that prorogation is necessary to allow the new leader time to get the PMO organized etc was plausible and reasonable. That is why no one complained. The report from the AG would still be tabled (and it was), and the AG is not an elected member of parliament and thus delaying her report is hardly the same thing as shutting down a committee of MP's who are asking uncomfortable questions about how the Prime Minister is handling detainees.

    So I am not concerned about proroguing Parliament to delay a report from a public servant. I am concerned about proroguing Parliament to prevent MP's from doing their job and holding the government accountable to the people of this country.

    In any event, this little argument is getting boring. People do not believe Harper on this. Time for you people to accept that.

  • Gayle

    Ha ha ha

    Time to face the truth. This argument is over and no one believes Harper.

    Time for you all to move on…

  • Lorraine

    I spent 14 years as a family member of an elected official – they are as human as you and me and believe me- the job is hard, never ending and people like you seem to feel it is okay to call them names and treat them like dirt. Meanwhile, away from the media glare and the gossips the real work for real citizens gets done often at a huge sacrifice in having any personal or family time. It takes very special people to run for any elected office and we owe them all a lot more respect than they get. Every job in every organization involves accountability – but how about a little respect .

  • roughandtumble

    Alberta girl……Harper was supposed to usher in anew way of governing with more accountability but you continue to relate his actions to Chretien's. That must mean he is not being accountable which we know to be a fact. Hypocrisy is a tory word.

  • roughandtumble

    and why did Harper say he would be more accountable and deliver much less accountability. Comparing him to the past is an admission that he is doing much the same as his predecessors apparently and is not being accountable and open. So he must be a hypocrite and a liar.

  • roughandtumble

    AG…. we understand it to be much less accountable than his promises.

  • roughandtumble

    the conservatives bend and shape the truth a million different ways every day. They could teach the MSM a lot about creative reporting.

  • roughandtumble

    lorraine……….I do constituency work and other volunteer work for my party and I say the Torie are hiding the facts about many many things. In my riding many hundreds showed up for the prorogation protest. Our riding association is strong has money in the bank and we all think Harper is a wannabe dictator.

  • Lorraine

    And all of you complainers only know what you hear or read in the media. I just cringe when I hear over and over that information is not available – there are millions of web pages and thousands of public servants posting information on pretty well anything you need to know. You think because the Opposition or the media claims they “want answers” that the answers are not forthcoming? What they really want is gotchas. Headlines. Not the daily grind of information and programs that matter to real people. If you really need to know something – that is not just some kind of info. used to attack but to help you in your life, your business, your home and family just check it out for yourself. If still not forthcoming contact your MP for help- that is what they do. If it is a provincial or municipal matter do the same thing. But just demanding “answers” and claiming “coverup” because it is not spo9onfed to you or is not for the public domain is small minded and not in the interests of anyone but headline writers and political opponents.

  • batb

    “Accountability is not something that happens only on election day.”

    You can say that again, and this CPC government under Prime Minister Stephen Harper's leadership is far and away more accountable than the Liberal$ ever were.

    It would be helpful if our media would report all of the positive and proactive things the CPC are doing for ALL Canadians — not just special interest groups and friends of the government, which was always the case with the LPC — rather than being a mouthpiece for the disloyal Opposition.

    Canadians — you know? the people of “the people's House” that Ignatieff talks about — are getting really tired of the gotcha politics being played by the Opposition parties, with the Liberal$ leading the posse. The faux scandals, ad nauseum, dreamed up by the Libs and their media toadies are becoming extremely tiresome, irksome, and counterproductive for the governance of this country.

    If the Liberal$, NDP, and the Bloc have any respect left for democracy, they will vote non-confidence in Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government and bring on an election rather than lob a steady hail of rocks at PMSH and his party. I feel those blows too. As someone who voted for the present government and who is confident that the CPC is the party most able to govern Canada after 13 years of Liberal corruption, I find this constant undermining of Canada's sitting and duly elected government painful and unnecessary. It is mean-spirited and shows a lack of generosity on the part of the Opposition towards Canadian voters.

    I'm still waiting for accountability on the part of the LPC when it comes to the over $40,000,000 stolen from Canadians during Adscam and concerning the loans still not repaid from the last election on the part of the LPC leadership candidates.

    You want to talk accountability? Be my guest, tedbetts. Be my guest.

  • roughandtumble

    I don't look for gotcha's. I look for responsibile and accountable government and its no where to be seen around Ottawa. Harper has become a Liberal in all but name to stay in power. That's the real fact.

  • tedbetts

    “You can say that again, and this CPC government under Prime Minister Stephen Harper's leadership is far and away more accountable than the Liberal$ ever were. “

    This is what Conservatives just don't get. A tiny fraction of the population voted for the Liberals in the last election. It's not about the Liberals. Just because they set a low bar, if you want to even buy your arguement, doesn't mean that is the maximum standard for the next guy.

    THAT is what the prorogation protests are about. THAT is why Harper has plummetted in the polls and the Liberals have only gained a little.

    Moreover, Canadians are getting sick and tired of the catch-all, use-it-for-all-screw-ups-and-failings weakkneed, pass the buck excuse of the “Liberals did it too! the Liberals did it too! the Liberals did it too!”

    It is exactly this kind of blind arrogance that got the Liberals booted, by the way. My sense is it is not all the way there yet for Harper but boy he sure keeps trying to get there.

  • tedbetts

    “I feel those blows too. As someone who voted for the present government and who is confident that the CPC is the party most able to govern Canada after 13 years of Liberal corruption, I find this constant undermining of Canada's sitting and duly elected government painful and unnecessary. It is mean-spirited and shows a lack of generosity on the part of the Opposition towards Canadian voters.”

    I really can't believe a Conservative reporter, someone who supports Stephen Harper, could have the gall to say that. I really really can't.

  • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ Canadiansense

    Parnel, still banned from Nik's Nanos blog?

  • roughandtumble

    kenn2…when will Harper start being accountable? he is now in davos interviewing for his next job not defending or promoting Canada.

  • kenn2

    people like you seem to feel it is okay to call them names and treat them like dirt

    If you have an objection to something I've said, point it out and I'll respond. Otherwise, we're just playing pot-kettle here.

    It takes very special people to run for any elected office and we owe them all a lot more respect than they get.

    On this… we agree. Except that around here that privilege is only extended to members of the CPC.

    But none of the foregoing in any way diminishes the requirement for government accountability and transparency, something Harper promised, but has failed to deliver yet.

  • Gayle

    That was supposed to be in response to AG. Sorry

  • Gayle

    The legislation has already passed, though those tough on crime laws were killed when Harper prorogued Parliament, which should be a pretty good indication that he really does not care about them.

    In any event, the Senate has not “gutted” anything, has amended very few of Harper's bills, and has only refused to pass one of them.

    Maybe next time you try to convince people you might want to rely on facts.

  • roughandtumble

    Still trying to blame it all on one name I see when there are so mnay in reality. Tough isn't it when so many people call you out on your nonsense,right Ms. brusmit?

  • http://canadiansense.blogspot.com/ Canadiansense

    Parnel I already stated that person is not me, clearly his grammar is MUCH better than mine. Apparently he and his wife have kept your aliases busy at Nik's.

  • batb

    Frankly, I don't know what you're talking about.

    I'm a “Conservative reporter”? What does that mean? I'm not a reporter and never have been.

    I am a Canadian who voted for the CPC candidate in my riding and was delighted when Stephen Harper remained the PM which meant we weren't stuck with Stephane Dion as PM with his front bench as Cabinet Ministers . The election before that one, I was delighted that the Librano$ had been booted out of office and that Stephen Harper and his party were going to be given a chance to govern Canada rather than treat Canada as their own personal fiefdom as the Liberal$ did the whole time they were in office. (As I say, I've batb (been around the block) and I have a long memory of Liberal jiggery pokery.)

    The Dippers, Liberal$, and Blockheads are playing at politics as they daily lob pot shots at our democratically elected government — rather than offer policies or reasonable amendments to CPC policies which result in shared governance of our country; their goal is to take power away from the CPC by any means possible rather than concerned themselves about the everyday lives of Canadians. They are emboldened in the knowledge that their pals in the media will quote them verbatim — and sight unseen, they know that their made-up scandals about the CPC will be blown out of proportion and presented to Canadians as fact, and they figure that if they keep battering the CPC long enough, Canadians will begin to accept their lies and that'll be the end of the CPC and “nasty Prime Minister Stephen Harper.” It's a nasty, cynical game.

    So, what is it exactly that I've had “the gall to say”? Please explain your thinking (?), because I really, really can't.

  • roughandtumble

    gayle, we must thank Stephen for keeping the progrogation issue on the front page

  • roughandtumble

    M123t….always interesting to see a tory whine. Iggy hasn't lifted a finger basically other than to lay on the wood to harper and he's back in contention. When he finally breaks a sweat it will be cxurtains for Harper and his ilk.

  • batb

    As for another comment of yours: “All that is left is to start talking about Adscam …”

    What an arrogant, facetious statement. I'm still pi**ed off about Adscam, of which there is a lot of unfinished business … something to do with a “culture of corruption” in the Liberal Party, according to the Gomery Report.

    Until Canadians get to the bottom of this slimy, ugly, corrupt chapter in our history — hey, it's not just all about the Liberal$; non-l/Liberal Canadians matter too — we're going to keep talking about it. It's not going to go away just because you and your cronies think “it's over,” “it's water under the bridge,” “just move along.”

    Some of us are still mad as hell about it.

  • Anonymous

    Gayle we must thank Stephen for keeping the prorogation issue up there where people can see the foolishness of these Tories. Lets hope he brings up the Afghan issue again as its due for more headline material. I think Harpo is going to squirm a lot throughout the olympics.

  • hollinm

    I want you to keep dreaming with those rose coloured glasses my friend.

    Remember last year when everybody had written Harper off. Well you saw what happened. The problem is Iffy is Iffy and he has foot and mouth disease. The more he talks the more he will flip flop. Yesterdays big job creation announcement was a bust and you know it.

    The fact is Harper has already done the capital cost allowance thingy in two budgets, enterpreneurs? and university students? Come on get real. Nobody believes this crap will create the jobs. It is economic policy that creates jobs, not government. Harper has the economic file hands down and your guy doesn't know how to add up his own cheque book.

    As I have reminded people many times there are only two choices in the next election;Harper and Iffy. Canadians will give the PM credit for stearing the country through the worst recession since the great depression. They will see Iffy for who he really is; a carpetbagger who knows little about the country and who has no real policies that people can believe in. The rest is all white noise.

    By the way I don't know you so I would prefer you use my login name when responding to me.

  • hollinm

    Of course you didn't mention that the pollsters thought that none of the polls showed momentum for Iffy and that the prorogue issue will pass.

    Watch what happens when the Olympics come, Harper comes back from a successful summit in Davos, begin putting meat on the bones for his new policy in Haiti and the plight of women and children in poorer countries. Watch for new items in the budget which will blow the Libs out of the water.

    Lied and cheated? This must be parnel by another handle. How has he hurt ordinary citizens in the country. Short of complaining about the income trust back flip he is following through on his policies. Prove he has cheated anybody. Utter crap by a partisan hack.

    The old story line that he is a big bully, a meanie etc applies to the fact that he plays politics to win and the opposition parties look weak. Of course much of this is driven by the lame street media who don't like the fact that he ignores them and really couldn't give a damn about what they have to say.

  • hollinm

    How do you know he is a better campaigner? He lost the first leadership race he ran in and he got appointed as leader. There is no evidence he has the ability to conduct a campaign.

    Harper knows the country and you know it. He has been in politics a long time and has travelled the country many times listening to people. Not like Iffy who prefers to talk to a pile of university kids who are wet behind the ears and have no idea what the real world is like. It shows where his interest lies; pontificating and it is not mixing with the real people who actually vote and where his non existent policies may impact.

    Avoiding accountability? Harper has allowed parliament a say on when to go to war. That never happened previously. Provided quarterly updates on the stimulus program as requested by Parliament. He allowed a free vote on gay marriage. He called the inquiry on Schreiber/Mulroney. He sued Elections Canada for changing the interpretation of the election rules after the fact and won. He won against Election Canada in respect to GST rebates. Those are all evidence of accountability not just for the government but for its institutions.

    You can criticize him for breaking the spirit of his fixed election date law but what is more democratic than allowing the people to decide. Instead of worrrying about the votes the Conservatives got you should focus on the dismal showing of the official opposition. Historical lows and they have a long road to hoe. Where will they get the extra 40+ seats to win even a minority? Quebec (outside Montreal) is a write off and the West is a write off. So unless Ontario abandons Harper there is more opposition time for the Liberals.

    Don't worry the Afghan detainee issue is not gone I am sure. The opposition can howl in early March after they support the throne speech and the budget. We both know the reason the media and the opposition is upset is because they have lost any momentum and the political damage it could cause. Sorry for their luck. The prorogation thing was driven by the lame street media and the opposition only jumped into the act when they saw how hard the media was driving the issue. This to will pass.

    Responsible government? What in the world are you talking about. If what you say is true and the opposition believe it to be true then they have an obligation to defeat the government and let the people decide. Responsible government? Indeed.

  • hollinm

    Gayle, Gayle, Gayle…you want to play with semantics. The bottom line in both situations is the same; the House is not sitting. Don't be so damn arrogant. Nobody is trying to confuse the issue.

    The House was not scheduled to come back until Jan 25th and will not sit during the Olympics. It is the same thing. Nobody is home.

    The time of actual prorogation is 17 additional days. Hardly the end of democracy as we know it. Watch for it Gayle. At the end of 2010 the media, pundits etc will say the decision to prorogue was a good decision. Watch for it coming to a TV near you at the end of 2010.

    We will see if the opposition parties really believe the hype and the rhetoric exercised by them and the media after the throne speech and the budget are presented. Vote non confidence and let democracy reign.

    There are only two choices in the next election; Harper or the carpetbagger. Even the pollsters are saying that the current decline in the polls for the Conservatives is not good news for Iffy. Read them and weep.

    Canadians know who has provided good leadership over the past year and Iffy if he has the brains they say he has will see it and bide his time.

  • roughandtumble

    here's something from EKOS via Jane Taber that will bring smiles to many Canadians:

    Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:01 AM EST

    Will Canadians want to 'throw the bums out' in a spring election?
    Jane Taber

    The latest seat projections from EKOS Research show Stephen Harper’s reigning Tories as the Official Opposition with Michael Ignatieff’s Liberals sitting on the government bench in the House of Commons.

    Pollster Frank Graves calls this shift “eye-popping.” And he believes “aversion to an election has declined significantly. “

    “There is a lot of throw-the-bums-out sentiment starting to percolate out there,” he says.

    Plugging his new poll numbers into his seat projection model, Mr. Graves has the Liberals winning 119 compared to 110 for the Tories if an election were held today. The NDP would win 30 seats, the Bloc could garner 46 and Elizabeth May’s Green Party would win one seat – in Ontario – with two more going to “other” parties or independents, according to Mr. Graves’ projection.

    Last week, he had the Tories with 117 seats compared to 114 for the Liberals. The Tories now have 145 seats to 77 for the Liberals in the 308 seat House of Commons.

    Mr. Graves says this could well open the door to a spring election, based on the Conservative budget that is to be delivered March 4.

    “It is eye-popping to note that the CPC have gone from a seat projecting in the fall which pegged them at 177 to 110 and opposition status,” he says. “This is by no means a prediction of any future election, but it is a whiplash-like shift in any hypothetical parliament based on today’s voter preferences.”

    As to a spring election, Mr. Graves believes the game may have changed.

    Last fall, Canadians were dead set against a trip to the ballot box. Indeed, the Liberal vow to take down the government last fall cost them dearly in the polls.

    Mr. Graves now says the opposition parties have three months to develop and build upon “this anti-democratic theme” sparked by Mr. Harper’s decision to prorogue Parliament. At the same time, he says the opposition needs to “construct a plausible narrative of what would be better and different if the government were actually displaced.”

  • Gayle

    They are not the same, no matter how many times you say otherwise.

    Do you see the Afghanistan Committee sitting right now? You don't. You know why? Because Harper prorogued so he did not have to suffer the indignity of being exposed as a liar and a fraud.

    Prorogation killed the committee, and that is why he did it. I know it, you know it, and the rest of the country knows it too.

  • Gayle

    I take it you did not read the Globe today.

  • peggykirkpatrick

    Have some sense they had maybe 22 -25 000 out of their 210 000clicky buddies. By the time the conservatives go back to parliament they will be 90 days ahead of the rest!!! They are the only ones working!! Get over it!! Stop using the numbers on the anti-prorogue site. They couldn't agree amongst themselves!!!

  • peggykirkpatrick

    I always love the letters that begin with “I voted for Harper, or I've always been conservative but…” You know it's to give their comment some believability.

  • peggykirkpatrick

    Haiti has had an effect-otherwise the conservatives would be behind by 5% due to the media coverage of the rallys, facebook and Iggy all week in front of the doors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It stopped the bleeding!!! The conservatives dropped by 0.4% and the liberals went up by 0.7% in a week when the liberals should be miles ahead!!!

  • Gayle

    It never ceases to amaze me how conservatives contort themselves in order to soothe themselves.

    Just listen to what you are saying here:

    First, if the LPC “should” be ahead, that would only be because of Harper's collosal miscalculation.

    Second, you seem pretty eager to latch onto Haiti as being a good thing for Harper. That is kind of icky.

  • Anonymous

    He’ll bring back every one of those bills and let the idiots vote against certain ones to re-emphasize they don’t want to get tough on crime.

  • tedbetts

    And he'll be even less credible this time than the last time. For some of these crime bills, this will be the third or fourth time he has introduced them, having killed them himself two or three times before already.

    I am beginning to see what Andrew Potter meant. He has no intention or desire to pass the crime bills. He just wants to be able to keep announcing them just before a possible election.

    Judging from the reaction to it, I would say he knows how to play his base, wring more dollars from them, without ever actually doing anything.

  • peggykirkpatrick

    God he IS GOOD ISN'T HE???????