You're suggesting that it's the Tories' deliberate attempts to mislead and divide Canadians, that can be blamed? . . Can't help that notice this exchange happens in the committee on Agriculture, not Jutice.

Well isn't this the sign of civility. I guess it only applies to Conservatives right?
Don Newman's column was silly. It was more about who attended a party.
The fact remains Harper and his government has every right to be suspicious. The civil service is filled with bureaucrats that have been appointed by Liberals for virtually all of the last century.
Then we have the left wing media exaggerating every comment made by the Conservatives. How is it the media trys to ambuse Conservative MPs/candidates during an election.
How responsible of Julie Van Dusen of CBC asking Harper in one of his first press conferences if it was his intent to hide.
Then of course we all remember the PPG walking out of a press conference held by the PM because they couldn't get their way.
We all remember wafergate, poopin puffins in the last election and the list goes on.
So Harper and his party have real reason to be suspicious and it has nothing to do with Preston Manning.

so Mervin are we going to remember Afghhaistan as the Tories downfall for all their extremely poort and possibly criminal handling of the prisoner affair.

Well you are still around eh parnel.....this happened 2 1/2 years ago and it was Paul Martin who changed the system of handing Afghan detainees over to the Afghan government versus the U.S. military. So how many terrorists got tortured when the Libs were in power. Don't get to smug because some of this could well wash all over the Liberal party and its incompetence in protecting detainees.
The government changed the system and you know it to allow for more visits to prisons etc.
So you may think this is a real issue with Canadians but the fact is they could care less about Afghans torturing Afghans.
The polls sure show Iffy is winning the hearts and minds of Canadians (sarcasim intended).

More importantly what did you think of Ms. Krieber (Dion's wife) blasting your beloved leader?. I see a very juicy ad in the next election.

Hollinm, you continue to drift from the facts. Your leader and PM has covered up and allowed torture to continue. I wonder how many Afghanis are maimed or dead from these actions by our government. That should be your only concern.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I doubt Stephen Harper did any such thing. Lets remember these alleged tortures happened right after the Conservatives were elected to government. They do not make the day to day decisions on the battle field. Those are rightfully left up to the commanders on the field. However, they did strengthen the pathetic agrement the Libs had in place.
Frankly I could care less what happens to the Afghan detainees, combattants, terrorists or whatever name you want to call them. The Canadian military did not torture anybody . I suspect most Canadians feel the same way.
The media and the opposition may think they have an issue here but in the end Canadians have only one choice in the next election and that is to elect a majority Conservative government. They will never elect the carpetbagger who pretends to lead the Liberal party.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

NOVEMBER 24, 2009
network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/24/michael-ignatieff-on-torture-be-careful-what-you-

ON WHEN TORTURE ISN'T EVIL
"...in a situation of extreme necessity, the possibility, even a slight possibility, that it [torture] may reveal some life saving result would almost certainly overwhelm any consideration that it is evil." - Michael Ignatieff, The Gifford Lectures, University of Edinburgh, January 2003

ON HOW DEMOCRACIES SHOULD JUSTIFY TORTURE
"The use of coercive force in a liberal democracy...is regarded as a lesser evil. This particular view of democracy does not prohibit emergency suspensions of rights in times of terror. But it imposes an obligation on government to justify such measures publicly, to submit them to judicial review, and to circumscribe them with sunset clauses so that they do not become permanent." - Michael Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil: Political ethics in an age of terror, Princeton University Press, 2004

But don't just take our word for it, Ignatieff's writings on the appropriate use of torture are of concern to Liberals as well:

"To justify violence, he must have really given it serious thought. Otherwise, that's very dangerous. What guarantee would there be that he wouldn't change his mind again?" - Terrorism and counter-terrorism scholar Dr. Janine Krieber, Facebook message as reprinted in Toronto Star November 21, 2009

Don't tell me Don Newman's STILL around? Don't CBC brooooodcasters EVER retire?

Mercy, as my grandmother used to say.

In his article about The Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians' fifth annual dinner in Ottawa this week, Newman writes -- of course, on the CBC Web site -- "It ... reminded many of how, not so long ago, Parliament could function more or less civilly while dealing with important and divisive issues, and could actually get the business of Canada done."

Good G*d, Mr. Newman, are you blind or just incompetent and shamelessly partisan?

The reason Parliament could function civilly when the Liberal$ were in power and the CPC was on the Opposition benches, is because Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the CPC MPs cared about the business of Canadians going forward. They didn't manufacture scandals every week -- they didn't have to, seeing as the Librano$ were the authors of their own numerous scandals -- nor were they interested in stonewalling every proposal made by the Liberal Government, UNLIKE what's going on now in Parliament.

It is the Liberal$ who have dragged Parliamentary business into the gutter. They never let up on the CPC, they continually try to find fault and seem to be following a policy of non-cooperation with them as they relentlessly pursue their climb back to power. They also have the collusion of (and free PR from) their lapdogs in the media, , including Mr. Newman.

Canadians no longer need Mr. Newman's toxic opinions foisted on them now that he's retired. Take up a hobby, Mr. Newman. Pack it in, Mr. Newman. Get a life far from the CBC, Mr. Newman.

We don't need to hear from you anymore. And many of us would prefer not to.

Mr. Newman should simply bow out gracefully -- if that's possible for a Liberal partisan. He's had his day as a journalist and broadcaster and does his reputation no good by being a braying donkey for the Grits.

Batb good post, and here I thought "that's the broaaaadcaast " had finally succumbed. but I guess the LPC needs their political mouth pieces.

Let's celebrate the 1 year anniversary of the "Rally for Canada" by having a "Can the CEE BEE CEE", tea party!

How about the Rat Pack, especially Sheila Copps.

we think freedom of speech of conservative is only bluffing and steal idea from other and when time come they will cansor and control all other writer and hid the fact and hired judges to hid facts as we know who are conservaitce of canada are bunch of theifs in busienss by looknice but they have two faces play here

Fair enough. The CPC have their handbook of "how to disrupt committees so nothing gets done" and the NDP have one single outburst, by a clearly exasperated MP responding to a comment that obviously had zero to do with the committee's mandate.

BATB - funny how the PC's managed to govern without thinking the civil servide were out to get them after many years of liberal rule, and then the LPC was able to govern on the same terms after many years of PC rule. Seems it is only the CPC who have a problem here.


Yeah - I can see why you would equate the two.

Maybe try again.

Gayle, the CPC may (or may not) have an official handbook but...do they use it? Is the CPC the only party to be rude in Parliament? Good God - ever watch Mulcair spew? Ever watch a certain female LPC spew? Ever watch Ignatieff spew? The CPC is not the only guilty party, here. Yes, I know you didn't say that the party was the only one to be rude.

Do you think they wrote the handbook for fun?

The reason people like Don Newmann bring the handbook up is because it is obvious the CPC are using it.

There is a difference between being rude, and being obstructionist.

Well, I watch QP as well and I think your LPC is also obstructionist. I swear that the CPC could come up with a perfect plan to end poverty (or some other issue, for example) and Ignatieff would get on his podium, grimace all over the map, and vow to bring down the government.

Is Don Newman back on tv. Lots of references to him lately. With no computer, tv, radio, or newspapers for the past week, I missed his return. Please clue me in.
But, I was at a conference that had mainly liberal and ndp supporters, and listening to their comments during breaks was hilarious. Not one fact mentioned, just a lot of dissing PMSH and the Wildrose party.
Was like being in a room full of gayles and parnels. Hey, I survived, and was even cordial to Kevin Taft.

Gayle, peple with blinders on never see right or left. The Tory monkeys who post here have blinderds and white canes.

What is "peple" and what is "blinderds"? I think you were trying to insult us Tories but somehow your insult became lost in your inability to express yourself correctly. I've noticed that so many non-CPC supporters have not even a basic grasp of English or French. Oh, and BTW - nice insult to blind people. You sure are a classy person - using visual impairment as an insult. Such class. Such intellect.

Being one who always supports the blind, I too was taken aback by that badly chosen analogy. It was wicked but very typical of some of those who do drive-by smut and smears on Conservative sites. The bunker boys are probably finding it hard to get good help these days. Of course some even work for free so you get what you pay for.

Gayle: "Seems it is only the CPC who have a problem here."

Not really. For some reason it seems to be l/Liberal$ that have a visceral hatred of c/Conservatives, not the other way around. While it's true that I'm not too thrilled with l/Liberal$ and do tend to see their affliction as connected to mental illness, I am always civil -- and often very generous -- to my l/Liberal friends. I even ask them to my parties.

OTOH, I don't know m/any l/Liberal$ who countenance c/Conservatives. They tend to make fun of, feel contempt for, and shun those on the right side of the political spectrum.

So, I suspect that when the Liberal$ came to power and had to deal with Conservative civil servants (though, honestly, how many could there have been after so many years of Liberal rule?), they found a professional group of civil servants not rabid anti-c/Conservative attack dogs.

;-)

Hopefully you think you are being funny, but in case you are not, I am not sure how you equate being "civil" and calling people who do not agree with you mentally ill.

Though I love how you just make stuff up when the facts do not fit your scenario. That whole "attack dog" thing is a nice touch. If I were not so civil, I would say such comments make you look like you are crazy.

Excuse me if I got this wrong, Gayle.

I thought we were talking about civility in the HOC. Weren't we?

You can diss me all you want, but I'm not the subject of this debate.

As Liz points out, take a look at the hissing and dissing by the members on the Opposition benches of the sitting government, the lack of respect and decorum in much of their questioning, all condoned and given legs by the Newmans, Tabers, Olivers, Clarks, and the several Susans in the media.

The Liberal$ have turned the House of Commons into a bawdy and vulgar mud-wrestling pit. And why? Because they simply cannot accept or get used to the idea that they're no longer the "Natural Ruling Party" (sic) of Canada. They've had the reins to the horses, the keys to the coffers, their fingers in the pockets, their brown paper bags on the tables, for so long, they don't have a clue how to operate outside that paradigm. They're pi**ed!

Hell hath no fury like a Liberal scorned.

Cute. If you are not the subject of this debate, why tell me about how civil you are to your mentally ill friends?

We could trade examples all day of who is more uncivil than the other. The point Don Newmann was making was that until this particular party entered the House of Commons, we did not have this problem.

Mr. Taylor here finds one example of one exchange and acts like it is the ultimate proof the CPC are saints. It was a nice try, and it sure brings the paranoid conspiracy theorists like you out, but it really amounts to a pathetic attempt to justify the CPC's behaviour.

So make all the excuses you want, but the facts are what they are.

"If you are not the subject of this debate, why tell me about how civil you are to your mentally ill friends?"

Gayle, I am surprised that you left yourself wide open like that.

Gayle if you simply played back every exchange Baird has had in QP the facts would really stand out. The guy is a bully, a liar and unethical in the Herpecrite tradition.

Gayle, please provide links to the question periods where the conservatives, in opposition, asked riduculous questions, used faux outrage to make their point, and continually shouted down any responses to their questions. Those actions are by the liberals since being rejected by the people of Canada. Liberals can't handle the truth, they were defeated. They have lost 70 seats in the last elections.
They will lose more.
Someone explained the difference between liberals and conservatives, libs have meetings, form committees, have inquiries and do nothing to implement their ideas. Conservatives go out and get things done, for the betterment of Canadians.

BatB: your comments are very true, the LPC even to this day still feel it is their divine right to govern and that in short order will be returned to power. Most true Liberals like Gayle have a tendency to overlook the abuses of privileges like a Carolyn Bennet, Hedy Fry and Marlene Jennings. The overlook the elimination of Conservative witnesses in committee; example of Paul Szabo and Part Martin in the ethics committed on the Libs so called in out scheme. I really it is impossible to debate with them.

Well son, your problem is you neglected to say why the witnesses were not allowed.

Just because the Chair rules against the CPC it does not automatically mean the Chair was wrong. Speaking of overlooking things in order to find fault with anyone who does not agree with the CPC...

Next time try to educate yourself a little better.

The liberals remind me of the spurned wife, who is still dissing her husband she divorced 20 years ago.
And for all those years she has tried in vain to turn their children against him, and failed.

Gayle, have you checked out Mr. Atamanenko's ballistic responses -- that's crap, go to Hell, let's settle this outside, etc. -- as compared to the very civil presentations and responses of two CPC members, Blake Richards and Randy Hoback?

I'm not aware of CPC members in the HOC making comments about the girth of other members of the HOC or using language like Alex Atamanenko's. How come the media isn't showing this footage? That'd be a frosty Friday.

However, if this kind of language was being used in committee by members of the CPC, the usual media hacks would be airing this clip every chance they got.

Conservatives are simply getting tired of the constant double standard. Fair is foul and foul is fair in the newsrooms of this Deranged Dominion (Mark Steyn).

Gsyle...dead on meantal illnes is a Tory trait which is why tory times are tough times and the scandals are starting to come fast and furious.

These people are arrogant and their leader cannot get his numbers anywhere close to a majority but yet they persist in their apopolexy.

I gotta say I don't what the point of this post was supposed to be.

An NDP MP walks out of a parliamentary committee because Conservative members repeatedly try to introduce an editorial about gun registry into the record at the agriculture committee, and you think it's the New Democrat MP would isn't behving in a mature a civil manner in parliament?

You've gone and lost your mind.

Well, I hope you find it because obviously you don't have one of your own.

Anonymous made a very good point. It amazes me still how much some of you fail to grasp what the CPC are doing.

Pray tell East - what do you think the gun registry has to do with an agriculture committee? Do you need a gun to grow a crop?

No, you need a gun to shoot the gophers that tear up your crops.

Oh please. Could you get any more lame?

Tell us Mr. Taylor - was the editorial about how guns are totally necessary in order to save the crops from gophers? And did it also say the registry would prevent the farmers from saving the crops?

Oh my god! Will we all starve because of the registry?!

You might need a gun to kill the animals and birds trying to eat those crops. And they work great in scaring off liberals.

Yeah, and if you register them you cannot use them to kill anything.

Anyway...

Wouldn't it be great if they registered all guns in Toronto, think of the lives that could/would be saved if registered guns couldn't be used to kill.

I am thinking you are not getting the sarcasm...

anonymous.....they lost their minds a long time ago. they lost their honesty and ethics back then also.

I'd say the Opposition sets the tone in the HOC, they are the ones who put out the questions . It's their attitude when posing the questions that signals whether they really want an answer or whether they're trying to score points and the question is irrelevant. The latter is where the Liberals are at this point and it's not working for them.

The HOC tone is as it is now because the Liberals cannot accept they are not in power, it's got zero to do with anything else.

The Liberals and their media hacks and toadies were a disgrace the way they treated Preston Manning so it's not surprising the likes of Newman would blame the victim who endured some of the meanest and personal attacks we've seen in recent memory, everything from his religion to his physical appearance. Mr Manning is a decent human being, a loyal Canadian, nothing phony about the man.

Dion and Ignatieff are victims of where politics is at as well, the difference with them is they really are not up to the task of leading a party let alone running the country. The Liberals realized it with Dion and forced him out. Ignatieff may be on his way out as well if he continues to tank. It appears the Liberals may well be replaced by the NDP as Official Opposition if the trend continues.

How long before Mr Newman starts working for the LPC officially?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/an...

Stephen Harper's Conservatives just cannot help themselves. They carry on for a while sticking to a carefully controlled message, appearing reasonable and sensible. Then, the temptation for ferocious partisanship gets the better of them.

This temptation is deeply ingrained in the Harper party. It shows itself in the Conservatives' propaganda attack machine, in which opposition leaders' physical mannerisms are mocked and patriotism is impugned. It is displayed with how Conservative MPs use their mailing privileges, as in the recent outrageous mail-outs playing politics in the Jewish community against the Liberals.

It is revealed almost daily in the Commons and beyond in the ad hominem partisan attacks on previous Liberal governments. But, most starkly, it appears in the verbal muggings given anyone – even civil servants – who dare get in the way of the government's massive, well-financed and all-pervasive spin machine.

Guess the Liberals haven't watched Paul Szabo or Marlene Jennings in action on committees.....

I guess the boo nerds here haven't noticed the very obnoxious and unethical behaviour of Baird in the HOC

Hey, Terry1 is back. Banned from Janke and banned from Taylor so he tries his Janke handle. Baird is nothing compared with Mulcair, Ignatieff, or Goodale when it comes to tantrums, rudeness, and lack of rationality.

And apparently you don't know the difference.

Don Newman. He is still upset that the Dion-Socialist-separatist coalition fell apart.

No one was more giddy then him when the coalition papers were signed.

tjeerd, yeah Newman's a has-been who doesn't know it.

Pathetic.

Looks like this site is getting infested again.

It's odd discussing civility in parliament would attract such nasty uncivil comments but then again they are apologists for the same party who are the instigators.

Since the topic appears to be now down to insults guess it's OK to go OT to ask the Liberals what they think of Janine Krieber's Facebook entry, now taken down but not before it was circulated among party members and made public.

I don't blame her, her husband was used, made a fool of by his own party to expedite the ascension of Mr Iggy. Gotta ask, at 23% in the polls, hows that working for ya?

Although Dion is by no means perfect, I do kind of feel sorry for him. His party hung him out to dry and, along with a few bad decisions, he was doomed from the start. Considering that they accepted you-know-who, it's not surprising. That is the type of person who emobodies the LPC credo.

When they start eating their own there's not much hope for growth.

The infestation is local and limited to the tried and untrue group who post here. Try dealing with the issues for a change and not the ad hominum ATTACKS you specialize in.

'Wonder what the difference is between a Conservative "propaganda attack machine" and a disciplined, hard working, well-oiled, justifiably hard-hitting political party?

I guess it's all in the mind of the observer.

The difference is in the definition of propaganda:

"Official government communications to the public that are designed to influence opinion. The information may be true or false, but it is always carefully selected for its political effect."

This passage from the editorial Parnel links to explains further:

"It shows itself in the Conservatives' propaganda attack machine, in which opposition leaders' physical mannerisms are mocked and patriotism is impugned. It is displayed with how Conservative MPs use their mailing privileges, as in the recent outrageous mail-outs playing politics in the Jewish community against the Liberals.

It is revealed almost daily in the Commons and beyond in the ad hominem partisan attacks on previous Liberal governments. But, most starkly, it appears in the verbal muggings given anyone – even civil servants – who dare get in the way of the government's massive, well-financed and all-pervasive spin machine."

You can be a "hard-hitting" political party and still stick to the truth. Maybe Harper should try that whole "taking responsibility for his own actions" thing you conservatives say you are so big on.

"Official government communications to the public that are designed to influence opinion. The information may be true or false, but it is always carefully selected for its political effect."

That's funny. I don't know any government, anywhere, that doesn't try to influence public opinion. That's the nature of the beast, isn't it? A government not intent on influencing public opinion and not highlighting information "for its political effect" just isn't doing its job.

The part about not caring whether the information is true or false, again, is in the eye/mind of the beholder.

When the Liberal$ were in power, LPC supporters didn't seem to care whether that government's "information" was true or false. They were in thrall to the party and let a whole lot of scandals and questionable parliamentary jiggery pokery blow by them. In the media, reporters passed up a whole lot of opportunities for investigative journalism, giving the Liberal$ a pass, for instance, on Adscam, and airing their "soldiers ... in the streets" ads ad infinitum, even after the Lib$ had pulled them -- not, BTW, to aid the CPC but to drum it into Canadians' heads that Stephen Harper and his party were "dangerous."

When the Lib$ were in power, it was anything goes. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, Lib supporters are apoplectic. Too bad. Suck it up. Maybe your team will win the next round. And maybe they won't.

You asked the difference between a government "propoganda attack machine" and a "well oiled justifiably hard-hitting" political party.

I explained that one to you.

You respond with the predictable "But Adscam. ADSCAM!!!!!" and the predictable paranoid conspiracy theory about the media, neither of which had anything to do with your question.

You need to get some new material. Do your initials stand for "Beat Around the Bush"?

Haha.

Look, this government is hands-down better, more credible, and more accountable to the Canadian public than the LPC ever was. The markets are doing well, PMSH has steered Canada through a global financial meltdown with Canada doing far better than most other Western countries, and the CPC is NOT stealing the taxpayers' money. You might question how they are using our money, how they are allotting funds to various government initiatives, but there has never been any question about criminal activity as there has been concerning the tactics of the LPC.

I bring up Adscam because the money stolen from Canadians has neither been found -- where did it go? who's got it? who got rich off it? -- nor has it been paid back. Adscam isn't going to go away, Gayle. And, I'll keep bringing it up until some heads roll, some LPC fraudsters go to jail, and there's an accounting for the whereabouts of the million$ stolen from Canadians.

I'll hang onto Been Around the Block. That's why I'm asking some hard-hitting questions about the LPC and Adscam. 'No way I'm allowing it to fly under the radar because it's "an old story/material." I'm not "moving on, 'nothing to see here, folks." Like a dog with a bone, I'm hanging on.

Nice try, Gayle, but no cigar.

Adscam is still an unsolved theft of OUR money and we will never stop talking about it until it's found, paid back and the thieves pay their dues. The person who enabled it may have cavalierly said, "what's a few million"? We who work and pay taxes take it more seriously.

Keep up the good work batb, your comments are appreciated, insightful and on the mark.

The LPC and their apologists are not in a good place right now, we can expect more insults.

Thanks, Liz.

As you point out "We who work and pay taxes take it more seriously." We sure do! Those of us who work hard and struggle to pay all the bills on time, support our kids' education, give to charity, and sometimes wonder how we're going to meet all of our financial obligations are horrified that PM Chretien opined, after his government had been caught red-handed with their collective hand in the cookie jar, "what's a few million?"

'Easy for him to talk. What do you make of that comment, Gayle? Is it acceptable? Is it Prime Ministerial? Is it helpful to millions of Canadian taxpayers who are struggling to make ends meet? is it OK to disappear $42-million of our hard-earned dollars to put the LPC back in power?

None of which has anything to do with the topic. I am well aware you worship the ground Harper walks on, so nothing new here.

But do have fun flogging that dead horse. We can start calling you "flogging tories".

I'll try again, Gayle:

What do you make of Chretien's comment, "what's a few million?"

Is it acceptable? Is it Prime Ministerial? Is it helpful to millions of Canadian taxpayers who are struggling to make ends meet? Is it OK to disappear $42-million of our hard-earned dollars to put the LPC back in power -- and then make light of it?

Well ... ???

Does that have anything to do with what the CPC are doing or your question?

Well...?

Have you got a copy of the OP ED he was going to quote from?