Richard Ciano’s bid to run the PCPO

If all Ciano and  Kouvalis have to offer is win at any cost, and  good ‘message’, Ontario would be better off if they just stayed out of politics.

There was no gravy train, and a long city-wide strike in the new year will be Ford’s holiday gift to Toronto. Thanks a pantload, Kouvalis.

Geezus!  The city is 770 million dollars in debt and there was no gravy train?  Last time I
checked, Ontario Hydro was owed to the tune of some 9 billion dollars
too.   Please, please, please,  Kenn2 tell us you’re never going to run as
Treasurer….of anything.   One day, you know, you’re going to have to
get over that “if its Conservative, its got to be bad, chip on your
shoulder.

Good on Richard. The PCPO certainly needs both leadership and expertise. Richard and his team have both.

However; the PCPO needs more than a desire to win and run things. It needs more than a commitment to replace the Liberals. It needs a coherent political philosophy, one with an ethos, a statement of principles and a policy suite that is consistent and serves those principles. From that we should be able to get an appealing platform that makes sense rather than a contradictory hodge-podge of  disjointed planks based on polling that few can get enthusiastic about.

I hope the winner isn’t just a figurehead or a former minister with pretensions. PCPO and its supporters need to get serious about winning.

Good on Richard. The PCPO certainly needs both leadership and expertise. Richard and his team have both.

However; the PCPO needs more than a desire to win and run things. It needs more than a commitment to replace the Liberals. It needs a coherent political philosophy, one with an ethos, a statement of principles and a policy suite that is consistent and serves those principles. From that we should be able to get an appealing platform that makes sense rather than a contradictory hodge-podge of  disjointed planks based on polling that few can get enthusiastic about.

I hope the winner isn’t just a figurehead or a former minister with pretensions. PCPO and its supporters need to get serious about winning.

There was, and IS no civic “gravy train”  in Toronto. Ford’s own KPMG audit this spring made this clear. The only way to cut 10% from the budget is to reduce services by the same amount, and cutting services by 10% is not what Ford was elected to do (even by conservatives).

Like most governments, Toronto runs a deficit. We could spar all day on who’s not funding what or who downloaded to whom. Fact remains – there is no “gravy train”, and there are real financial problems to solve here.

But it’s nice that you raised your head from the oil trough long enough to notice us.

There was, and IS no civic “gravy train”  in Toronto. Ford’s own KPMG audit this spring made this clear. The only way to cut 10% from the budget is to reduce services by the same amount, and cutting services by 10% is not what Ford was elected to do (even by conservatives).

Like most governments, Toronto runs a deficit. We could spar all day on who’s not funding what or who downloaded to whom. Fact remains – there is no “gravy train”, and there are real financial problems to solve here.

But it’s nice that you raised your head from the oil trough long enough to notice us.

The only way to cut 10% from
the budget is to reduce services by the same amount, and cutting
services by 10% is not what Ford was elected to do (even by
conservatives).
Like most governments, Toronto runs a deficit.   Fact remains – there is no “gravy train”, and there are real
financial problems to solve here.
But it’s nice that you raised your head from the oil trough long enough to notice us.

I’m not sure what’s more frightening, the fact that you’d spew such
garbage or the fact that you obviously believe it.  New’s Flash – “Most”
governments run deficits for a short time due to needed infrastructure
costs or unexpected/unplanned needs – Toronto has been doing it since
before the Mega city amalgamation – which was why it was done – to get
their hands on the budgetary surplus’s from other citys.    They are $770 million in the hole.   Nor have
they sold off the various municipal properties that were supposed to
bring in the funnding to pay for it.   What, pray tell, despite your
obvious excusing of this simple fiscal truth, do you propose is the answer to
forever expending future funding which you don’t have????   That is to
say, what precisely is the answer to decades of deficit spending?  
Realistically, perhaps to stop the hemoraging the Province should simply
do what the Euro zone is doing to Greece – step in a tell them to
either get their affairs in order or declare bankruptcy.   The simple undeniable fact is that when you’re spending more than you bring in – you have to cut – something.

And yet again you leap to another conclusion, just as wrong as your
prevous attempts – Just because I don’t think the most vibrant,
inovative and hardworking province in the country should immediately
bankroll the laziest and most navel gazing, doess’t mean I live in the
“oil trough”.  Ontario’s only strength was that they managed, by sheer
luck, to situate themselves next to the industrial heartland of the US
which needed manufacturing support.   Now that manufacturing jobs are
disappearing to lower labour rates, just as they always did, even when
they came to the US for its mass production benefits, suddenly Toronto
wants to be supported.    Perhaps if they start emulating Alberta, which
they are miles from doing, instead of being jealous and petty about
Alberta’s success (see your comment above) they may get somewhere.  

What, pray tell, …do you propose is the answer to forever expending future funding which you don’t have????…The simple undeniable fact is that when you’re spending more than you bring in – you have to cut – something….suddenly Toronto wants to be supported.

Toronto generates 20% of Canada’s GDP. One-fifth.Toronto is a net CONTRIBUTOR to the provincial and federal budgets. Toronto pays out more in taxes than it gets back from the federal or provincial governments, even now. What should we do? Keep more of that at home, maybe.

The government of Toronto is bigger and has more responsibilities than a
few of Canada’s provinces, but with less power to tax or regulate. To pick just one area where the feds have let us down, Canada is one of the worst among industrialized countries for national and provincial support of public transit.

Just because I don’t think the most vibrant, inovative and hardworking province in the country should immediately bankroll the laziest and most navel gazing, doess’t mean I live in the “oil trough”.  Ontario’s only strength was that they managed, by sheer luck, to situate themselves next to the industrial heartland of the US which needed manufacturing support.   Now that manufacturing jobs are disappearing to lower labour rates, just as they always did, even when they came to the US for its mass production benefits, suddenly Toronto wants to be supported.    Perhaps if they start emulating Alberta, whichthey are miles from doing, instead of being jealous and petty about Alberta’s success (see your comment above) they may get somewhere.

Ontario just makes/made cars. Riiight.

It’s good to be proud of your province. I too think Alberta’s great.  I have friends and family there. Most of them know and are grateful that Alberta is blessed with tremendous resource wealth. Unlike you, they don’t pretend that their current resource-based fortune is some sort of ethical validation. Or are you suggesting that clever Albertans  had the foresight to bury dinosaurs a few years back?

I’d love to emulate Alberta. Show me where our oil is and we’ll get on that.

SAVE THE PC PARTY MR. HUDAK: RESIGN

Hudak’s
“No Sense Revolution” exemplifies that he is a simply another big
spending, big government progressive liberal. Mr. Hudak failure to
publicize precisely how he will eradicate the $17 billion deficit
within two years demonstrates that his “No Sense Revolution” will
mean higher taxes for our children, and ensure that their standard of
living will be lower than ours.

Hudak’s
platform should be to eliminate the deficit in TWO YEARS. He must:

Eliminate
the HST;

Implement
a 25% across the board cut;

Eradicate the nationalization of the
child care industry;

Sell
the auto companies stock;

Lay-off
tens of thousands of useless civil servants;

Freeze salaries/benefits, including
teachers until they equal private sector wages/benefits;

Allow
municipalities to declare services such as bus service as
“essential services”;

—machiavelli

Sell crown corporations
including the Lottery and Gaming Corp, TVO, Hydro 1 and the
LCBO?

Toronto generates 20% of Canada’s GDP. One-fifth.Toronto is a net
CONTRIBUTOR to the provincial and federal budgets. Toronto pays out more
in taxes than it gets back from the federal or provincial governments,
even now. What should we do? Keep more of that at home, maybe.

Gee, that’s precisely what Alberta has been doing for decades and all they get in return is insults and red neck comments – in fact it was only about forty years ago that they were actually permitted to maintain the benefits of their provincial assets – before that it was “managed” for them by the Feds.  Cry me a river.

The government of Toronto is bigger and has more responsibilities than a
few of Canada’s provinces, but with less power to tax or regulate.

Lol – you’re still not doing yourself any favours – a Vote in PEI is worth about four in BC – again, the West hasn’t had political power for decades and we (yeah, I was raised in Ontario but got out and got educated) were forced to stand by while Trudeau and the East raped us with programs like the NEP and policies like bilingualism which ensured the marginalization would continue whiile we listened to Liberals like Keith Davies slogan “Screw the west, we’ll take the rest.” 

Ontario just makes/made cars. Riiight.

Don’t be obtuse.   By an immense porportion, the vast majority of the “stimulus” that the Feds bailed out was in the Auto Sector in Southern Ontario from Windsor to Oshawa. No other sector or province got a fraction of the money that was pissed into it.

It’s good to be proud of your province.  Or are you suggesting that clever Albertans  had the
foresight to bury dinosaurs a few years back?

As I’ve said repeatedly, apparently with very little result, Alberta is not my province, I simply admire their mindset, industriousness and initiative and determination.  They are head and shoulders above any other province in those regards.  The fact that Toronto is determined to be the center of the universe doesn’t change that – if Toronto had the balls to bring Calgarians into run the province, our deficit would be gone in a few years.  Mind you, Torontonians don’t have the “pull up your socks, do it yourself and stop asking the government to hold you while you suck your thumb” mindset that Abertan generally do so it would certainly be a culture shock for the populace too.   And by the way, Oil is only one part of Alberta’s success and is a fraction of what they will be making from Natural Gas.   While o one, least of all themsevles, would say they are withouth fault, they’ve diversified and capitalized very well once they were permitted to by the Feds.

I’d love to emulate Alberta. Show me where our oil is and we’ll get on that.

Again you suggest that it is only oil that makes Alberta a success.  You’re ignorant as well as insulting.  Did you know that Calgary’s homeless are fed and live in the best facilites in Canada and it is all paid for by private money and organized by people with the ideas to make things work without sucking at the Governments teat?    Ontario’s “oil” was its location in relation to the US, its hydro capabilities, and its numbers.    Instead of innovating they prefered to depend on the US, got lazy and expected  the Nanny State to look after them in perpetuity which is why they still demand more than they can pay for.    That is not the fault of Alberta in particular or the West in general and no amount of insults, pettiness or jealousy is going to change that.

Wow. You just get a tooth out or something?

Too much to simply copy/paste, so let’s try point form:

-  the west was shat upon x years back, so it’s OK for you to dump indiscriminately on Ontario and Toronto now.

-  I point out Toronto’s economic contribution, and you…repeat about how the west was shat upon x years back

- you allege Ontario is just a satellite manufacturing center, I deride that, you state that all the stimulus $$ went to auto sector . I definitely gotta call bullsh1t on that. And what would you classify the ongoing subsidies and tax breaks to the oil/gas sector as?

- some more yay west/ boo east…westerners hard-working / easterners lazy,  (Ontario doesn’t innovate? really?) and Albertans having the highest per-capita income in Canada has nothing to do with it.

At this point I think you have covered all the Western and conservative insult categories … to continue would probably be redundant then, right?

Take an Advil, already.

PS -  Calgary is pretty awesome, for the reasons you note, and others.  I’d take their mayor in a heartbeat.

If the west likes Ford, … could we trade, maybe?

Wow. You just get a tooth out or something?

Strangely enough, yeah, I just got a crown that’s giving me trouble.  Getting it fixed this week.

-  I point out Toronto’s economic contribution, and you…repeat about how the west was shat upon x years back

Again you deliberately miss the point – the Alberta in particular and the west in general wasn’t just “shat upon”, they were and are disenfrancised.   If what happened to the west had ever happened in Toronto or Ontario, you would have heard the shrieks of outrage on Alpha Centuri.  And that’s what Dion’s “Green Shift” attempted to do again, so it’s not an “in the past” debate but an ongoing one.  Besides, there’s more than a bit of “Oh, woe is me” BS here.  Toronto and Ontario don’t get a fifth of the criticism that big bad old Alberta and its “redneck’s get, for many back east it’s a full on hatefest. In fact, your reaction is a good example of what happens when anybody suggests they get their fiscal house in order.   Pot, Kettle Black.

- you allege Ontario is just a satellite manufacturing center, I deride
that, you state that all the stimulus $$ went to auto sector . I
definitely gotta call bullsh1t on that.

I don’t care what you call it – name one other industry that the Government bought in order to keep solvent.

At this point I think you have covered all the Western and conservative
insult categories … to continue would probably be redundant then,
right?

Reality bites, I repeat it because it doesn’t seem to get through – I’m afraid you determine the necessity for that.  

PS -  Calgary is pretty awesome, for the reasons you note, and others.  I’d take their mayor in a heartbeat.

Change the voters and you’ll change the politicians – If Attwood had tried her schtick in Calgary she would have been asked why she wasn’t contributing and why she hadn’t come up with a way to keep the libraries open without government intervention.  i.e. innovation.   Doesn’t matter if its Ford, Lastman or “his Blondness”, the fact is you can’t continually spend more than you bring in.  What you need is someone to explain that and fast – Toronto’s infrastructure is in big need of upgrade and you haven’t stopped digging the hole yet.

Tooth pain or not, your broad-brush condemnation of things Eastern and blanket dismissal of Toronto’s  issues as “stop whining, spend less, save more” are just knee-jerk western-conservative catechisms. If you have genuine criticisms, that take into account the actual fiscal situation in Toronto, I’d love to hear it. Come here, talk to some Toronto friends, experience the wonder of Ford nation for yourself.

In the absence of reasonable federal policy (compared to most other wealthy democracies) regarding the concerns of large urban areas (eg public transportation, social assistance, immigration issues), it is down to what we put out vs what we spend. I agree it’s  simple but I see the other end of it – the Toronto government doesn’t get enough of its provincial and federal tax dollars back to handle the (federal and provincial) responsibilities foisted on it.

And to my main point, which you’ve left undisturbed – there was no “gravy train” in Toronto government, despite the slogan coined by a clever marketer… no gross wastage, no white elephants to slay, everyone knows this now, thanks to KPMG. It simply costs alot to run a large urban area, full stop. Dropping 10% of our obligations isn’t much of a fix. In his own way Ford, like the other mayors you deride, is simply kicking the infrastructure problems another few years down the road, for another government to solve (or avoid too).

I don’t care what you call it – name one other industry that the Government bought in order to keep solvent.

No, the auto sector did not recieve the bulk of the stimulus. Have you missed all those “Economic Action” signs with the swoopy arrows? Btw all of the auto sector stimulus is on track to be paid back.  So…why do we continue to federally subsidize resource industries that are not only solvent, but positively booming and making record profits?

There’s a conservative majority in Parliament, the Reform reform is in full flower ,  a western PM (we’ll agree to overlook his Eastern upbringing), oil and gas subsidies, and you say the west is still disenfranchised? J.H.C.!… what will it take?!?  Should the nation’s capital be moved to Lethbridge or Cranbrook? What?

C’mon…everyone, even westerners, tells Fort MacMurray jokes.

(good luck with the crown)

your broad-brush condemnation of things Eastern and blanket dismissal of
Toronto’s  issues as “stop whining, spend less, save more” are just
knee-jerk western-conservative catechisms.

 I’ve never heard common fiscal sense defined as “knee-jerk western-conservative catechisms” before, you guys back there may be in bigger trouble than I thought.   See: Greece.

I agree it’s  simple but I see the other end of it – the Toronto
government doesn’t get enough of its provincial and federal tax dollars
back to handle the (federal and provincial) responsibilities foisted on
it. 

Then raise municipal taxes, that’s what cities do.  Its also what Provincial and Federal government do.  Don’t look to solve city problems by getting the feds or even the Province to save you, they don’t have input to your choices.  Hell, if Toronto wants the province to take over their finances, ask them.

And to my main point, which you’ve left undisturbed – there was no
“gravy train” in Toronto government, despite the slogan coined by a
clever marketer… no gross wastage, no white elephants to slay,
everyone knows this now, thanks to KPMG. It simply costs alot to run a
large urban area, full stop.

See above.   Actually this is pretty entertaining.  You agree its simple, but then say that it’s too complicated for Toronto.  You’re just running desperately in ever decreasing circles until you run up your own ass.  Toronto may think they’re different that anyone one else but the facts remain the same – you can’t consistantly pay out more than you bring in – period.  If you do you have to cut something.  Call it the gravy train, call it libraries, call it infrastructure, call it unions, call it whatever.  Frankly, I don’t care if Toronto disappears into a gulf of debt as long as they solve it (or declare bacnkruptcy) without impacting the rest of us. They (you) were going to solve it all with the megacity,  but nope, hows that working out for you?  Its your debt, its your problem to solve, you  know what the problem is, fix it.  But stop insulting Westerners or expecting them to come save your ass.  
Finally, I repeat my question; Name one other industry the Fed had to buy to keep it solvent.  And yes, I realize that the auto sector wasn’t the only recipient.

Ah. All those Ontario insults (no innovation, whiners, Ontario is nothing more than satellite manufacturing) are  simply “common sense”. Thanks for clearing that up.

Um, newsflash – the good people of Alberta aren’t above sticking their hand out
when the wind changes a little. I imagine BC doesn’t miss an opportunity either.

Once again, nice sidestep of the gravy train issue (where this started). You’re not here; not your problem. Ok.

You remain silent about oil/gas subsidies… I guess I simply can’t distinguish between just and unjust handouts.

They (you) were going to solve it all with the megacity,  but nope, hows that working out for you?

You do know that the ‘megacity’ was a Mike Harris f-up imposed on Toronto, right? Together with the downloaded responsibilities. It still sucks, thanks for asking.

I get it. You’ve made your pile, you’re convinced it is your just reward for labour expended, and anyone/any thing that can’t do the same isn’t trying hard enough.

Thanks for clearing that up.

You’re welcome.  I know it is objectionable to the “poor us” crowd, but it is pretty obvious.

Um, newsflash – the good people of Alberta aren’t above sticking their hand out
when the wind changes a little. I imagine BC doesn’t miss an opportunity either.

Yes, interesting isn’t it?  Out of the three “Have Provinces” in he country, first BC, then Ontario, and now Alberta is serving notice to the Fed that they will no longer carry all the others.  Quebec has long boasted of it moral superiority by instituting $5 per day say care which was paid for by other provinces who didn’t have the money to institute it themselves.  The result is that the Have provinces are beginning to make sure their books don’t define themselves as such.  Essentially if the Fed dont’ change the Equalization/Transfer formula, theya re going to be left with apportioning money to all provinces while none contribute.

Once again, nice sidestep of the gravy train issue (where this started). You’re not here; not your problem. Ok.

Unless you’re blind I didn’t sidestep it at all.  Specifically “you have to cut something.  Call it the gravy train, call it libraries,
call it infrastructure, call it unions, call it whatever.”  I’m simply leaving it for Torontonians to solve.  If you really think you need more librairies than New York, fine, take it out of somewhere else.  No sucking black hole of fiscal irresponsibility has ever been solved by throwing even more money into it.   It is Toronto’s problem to solve,  I’m merely saying do so and don’t look to others for more money.   Its you that’s caterwalling about the impossibliity.   Again, see:Greece.   If you want the Province (or the West) to pay then let them do up your budget.  Seems fair enough.

You remain silent about oil/gas subsidies… I guess I simply can’t distinguish between just and unjust handouts.

The Feds offer subsidies to keep the price of oil down and push for greener solutions mush like they did in Hybernia.   But frankly, I don’t care.    Go for it.  Stop all exploration and other subsidies and watch the price of gas go to $8 a liter like it is in the UK.  Of course who would be skrieking the loudest then? Well based on the last time, it will be those people wo are leaving the skid marks in the sky above Toronto.  If you think the last recession was hard, that one would turn the Gardiner Expressway into farmland.  On the plus side, think of the people that could amke money selling snow tires for bikes.

It still sucks, thanks for asking.

Montreal has walked back on it – it is possible.  All you need is the political will -  Harris has been gone for years, you can stop blaming him.  It was Rae who bankrupted the province – Hence “Rae days”

You’ve made your pile, you’re convinced it is your just reward for
labour expended, and anyone/any thing that can’t do the same isn’t
trying hard enough. >

I’m convinced?  What, you think after working my ass off for 36 years doing stuff that very few Canadians have the guts to do I should still be supporting others?  Are you insane?  For your information, I’ve already retired once and am back at work.  To some extent, that is because I prefer it, but don’t let that stop you.  Get your ass down to a recruiting office and join the CF if you think its such a free ride.  It’s easy.  In fact now, they even send you home off mission’s if your wife is giving birth to your kids.  Go now, today.  Go make “your pile”.  It doesn’t cost a cent and their are offices right in Toronto so you don’t even have to travel.   Beleive me, a whole new world will open up to you.

After his two-faced, double standard wrt the “occupy” bums in Calgary, he’s a one-term wonder. He’ll have to move to TO, to run as a Liberal. You’re welcome.

First, apologies for the ‘ got your pile’ comment. It doesn’t make the point I was trying for, and would be too unfocussed anyway. For the record, I am OK with the whole free enterprise thing, as long as someone’s activities don’t diminish the nation, or cause others to suffer.

Wanna wrap this up. So:

Quebec …[instituted] $5 /day
Day Care which was paid for by other provinces who didn’t have the money
to institute it themselves. 

That’s untrue. First, you apparently don’t get the purpose and mechanics of equalization, second – daycare was a provincial initiative, from a provincial budget. This oft-repeated and false charge needs to be purged from the Conservative canon.

You still dance around the “gravy train” point, which is the main reason I commented. One of the praised characters in Stephen’s post is Nick Kouvalis, whom Stephen lauds for coining the “gravy train” message that helped get Ford elected. This gravy train was all the pork, frivolous spending and waste that Ford was going to uncover and eliminate. My point is that there never was this gravy train, and to achieve any savings, the only option is to cut programs significantly. If he had campaigned on that, he’d still be in his factory making stickers.

Ok, done.

?? Calgary’s mayor is doing what every Canadian mayor is doing:  leave the “Occupy’ people alone for a while, then enforce the no camping bylaw. What more do you want?

btw – trade offer still holds. I’ll even pay the shipping.

Wipe yourself.

Sorry. Got trolled by Doug.

Isn’t trolling usually your job?

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