Well said.

Fantino still needs to answer for Caledonia.

Dalton  McGuinty needs to answer for Caledonia. 

Any recollection of who took all the flak for Ipperwash? Does the name Mike Harris ring a bell ?

While the choice may make good politics there shouldn’t be too much trouble here.  The Navy needs some 28 new ships due to the Liberals never following on the Frigate program or a desperately needed replacement for the DDh 280 class or a new JSS/Tanker program.   Add to that the need for the Arctic Offshore Patrol vessels for either the Coast Guard or the Navy and the last time I looked there were something like 100 new ships needed for the Government if we have any intention at all of keeping our soverignty over and patrolling the arctic  as well as maintaining our link to NATO.  Last time I saw the plan, they were looking at having one east and one west coast yard which would tend to specialize in either the combat variety of ship or the Coast guard, i.e. non-combat vessels.   This makes eminent good sense both polictically and economically as we can’t sustain all yards in the country by trying to keep all yards afloat. Moreover if we tried to do that it would be insanely expensive.  Its not then, the need that is lacking or the lack of ability to keep both coasts happy.  What is always difficult is that it is almost impossible to explain to inlanders (no offense) why we so deperately need a Navy if we are going to play in the world or have any say over our three oceans.  I have relatives in Sask and its damned difficult to explain how so much of what they have comes by ocean – right up until you remind them that they don’t get paid for their grain until its loaded on a ship.  Its not just for Photo ops that the American’s keep sending their LA class boats up to get a picture of them breaking through the ice in the North.  But that is wasted on too many “Canadians”

good assessment . . .   Fantino is like a business consultant hired by management to absorb a lot of spears & arrows when necessary and be hidden when required.

“Dalton  McGuinty needs to answer for Caledonia. ”

Agreed but Fantino always touted himself as an independent from Government cop and he tooks sides against the residents of Caledonia wich resulted in Caledonis becoming a no-go zone for cops if natives are involved.

Nobody should forget that during World War II, C. D. Howe put a large part of shipbuilding into southern Ontario.  In 1942, this almost caused a disaster as many newly-built corvettes were prevented by ice from getting out to the Atlantic where they were desperately needed.  That was politics at its worse. 

As far as Levis is concerned, they were part of a paper/political consortium which attempted to win the Canadian Frigate Program bid in 1982.  Significantly, that consortium folded like a tent the day after the bid went to Irving.  They must be dismissed as a paper tiger ready to fold again. 

There are only two logical places for shipbuilding in Canada: Vancouver and Halifax. Since Irving already has the experience building ships for the navy, has undoubted financial capacity and is strategically located, I hope Halifax will get the nod. 

Mackay is an earnest, loyal, hard-working… flunky.  He checked his own integrity with his overcoat at the door long ago, is on a short leash, and he does what he’s told. Who’s a good boy? Here, have a cookie. Fantino by contrast is a proven quantity and nobody’s fool, therefore  can reasonably be trusted to make some tough decisons on procurement without having his hand held. He’ll help protect poor Petey’s invertebrate hide.

So, a reasonable choice.

It’ll take more than some single-sourced navy contracts to resurrect Canada’s shipbuilding industry, but here’s hoping …

Regardless of ship count, we’ll have all the ‘sovereignty’ in the north that the Americans are willing to grant us, which will be substantial, because it will save them most of the cost of patrolling it.  Harper’s already doubled down on that strategy by outsourcing our foreign policy anyway.

Mackay is an earnest, loyal, hard-working… flunky.  He checked his own integrity with his overcoat at the door long ago, is on a short leash, and he does what he’s told. Who’s a good boy? Here, have a cookie. Fantino by contrast is a proven quantity and nobody’s fool, therefore  can reasonably be trusted to make some tough decisons on procurement without having his hand held. He’ll help protect poor Petey’s invertebrate hide.

So, a reasonable choice.

It’ll take more than some single-sourced navy contracts to resurrect Canada’s shipbuilding industry, but here’s hoping …

Regardless of ship count, we’ll have all the ‘sovereignty’ in the north that the Americans are willing to grant us, which will be substantial, because it will save them most of the cost of patrolling it.  Harper’s already doubled down on that strategy by outsourcing our foreign policy anyway.

Its actually hard to define just how obtuse you are in your comments.    First, there aren’t too many Rugby players out there who are “flunkys”. Not only would his constituents point out that fallacy after electing him repeatedly but we you to suggest that to him on a pitch, my money would be on him handing your head to you to carry home after the game.  Team players tend to put the team ahead of themselves – that doesn’t make them “flunkys”.  If you look at the success of the party, the person and the country in the last ten years, its pretty obvious you’re simply running off at the mouth like a soup sandwich.    As well, McKay is well liked by the military – McCallum was a drunk and ignored on his very best days, mind you he was rarely sober enough – even when he was in a war zone – to notice.  He was a freaking embarrassment, but then so was his party.
Secondly, a three decade, $35 billion program would not only ressurrect an industry – almost anyone in Canada – it would create one if necessary.   The Frigate program was a paltry $12 billion one and it certainly created one of of Irving, wo before that was really only building civilian ships.
Third, if you think the US cares about the cost of patrolling the Artic, well, Wow!  Just… freaking… wow.  Here’s a news flash – they’ve been doing it – constantly – since the early 70′s.    For some reason they ddin’t want Soviet Boomer subs in Hudson’s bay without hunter-killers keeping track – and we didn’t have the subs to do it.     The reason being that we couldn’t due to Trudeau’s wish that we be closer to the Soviets than the Americans and he kept us from having a Navy capable of doing so – and his Liberals have done the same ever since the Cuban Missile crisis.  
The US is already after the Arctic, – where the hell have you been?  Specifically the Beaufort Sea and has been for years – why the hell do you think they have never agreed on a boundry and want, as Palin points out – to “Drill, baby drill” in it on what we claim is our side of the boundry.   You think al those pictures of the US subs poking thorgh the Ice are just pretty photo ops, do you?    You might want to read up on what Soverignty means and how it is exercised a bit.    Then it may be fairly obvious to you why everyone from Russia to Denmark is after our north, you see, there are a lot of resources up there.    I love it how you Toronto twits are all for anything that enriches Toronto but are entirely happy to let the rest of the country rot if you don’t see a specific benefit to yourselves.   It truly is greed and entitlement virtually personified.    Frankly, it make me throw up just a bit every time you refer to yourselves as “Canadian”.      And while I may not agree with all of Harper’s foreign policy, to suggest he has “outsourced” it is rich.    First the Liberals whined when he took China to task for their human rights violations, now they complain about his being too close to Israel (which I agree with) and still you whine about him “outsourcing” it.  Frankly, he’s the first PM to actually have a Foreign policy and actually follow it in decades.   Holy, freaking, Mother of God – no wonder we had Liberal governments for years….and I thought it was Walkerton that had the problems with the water.   

Its actually hard to define just how obtuse you are in your comments.    First, there aren’t too many Rugby players out there who are “flunkys”. Not only would his constituents point out that fallacy after electing him repeatedly but we you to suggest that to him on a pitch, my money would be on him handing your head to you to carry home after the game.  Team players tend to put the team ahead of themselves – that doesn’t make them “flunkys”.  If you look at the success of the party, the person and the country in the last ten years, its pretty obvious you’re simply running off at the mouth like a soup sandwich.    As well, McKay is well liked by the military – McCallum was a drunk and ignored on his very best days, mind you he was rarely sober enough – even when he was in a war zone – to notice.  He was a freaking embarrassment, but then so was his party.
Secondly, a three decade, $35 billion program would not only ressurrect an industry – almost anyone in Canada – it would create one if necessary.   The Frigate program was a paltry $12 billion one and it certainly created one of of Irving, wo before that was really only building civilian ships.
Third, if you think the US cares about the cost of patrolling the Artic, well, Wow!  Just… freaking… wow.  Here’s a news flash – they’ve been doing it – constantly – since the early 70′s.    For some reason they ddin’t want Soviet Boomer subs in Hudson’s bay without hunter-killers keeping track – and we didn’t have the subs to do it.     The reason being that we couldn’t due to Trudeau’s wish that we be closer to the Soviets than the Americans and he kept us from having a Navy capable of doing so – and his Liberals have done the same ever since the Cuban Missile crisis.  
The US is already after the Arctic, – where the hell have you been?  Specifically the Beaufort Sea and has been for years – why the hell do you think they have never agreed on a boundry and want, as Palin points out – to “Drill, baby drill” in it on what we claim is our side of the boundry.   You think al those pictures of the US subs poking thorgh the Ice are just pretty photo ops, do you?    You might want to read up on what Soverignty means and how it is exercised a bit.    Then it may be fairly obvious to you why everyone from Russia to Denmark is after our north, you see, there are a lot of resources up there.    I love it how you Toronto twits are all for anything that enriches Toronto but are entirely happy to let the rest of the country rot if you don’t see a specific benefit to yourselves.   It truly is greed and entitlement virtually personified.    Frankly, it make me throw up just a bit every time you refer to yourselves as “Canadian”.      And while I may not agree with all of Harper’s foreign policy, to suggest he has “outsourced” it is rich.    First the Liberals whined when he took China to task for their human rights violations, now they complain about his being too close to Israel (which I agree with) and still you whine about him “outsourcing” it.  Frankly, he’s the first PM to actually have a Foreign policy and actually follow it in decades.   Holy, freaking, Mother of God – no wonder we had Liberal governments for years….and I thought it was Walkerton that had the problems with the water.   

Third, if you think the US cares about the cost of patrolling the Artic,
well, Wow!  Just… freaking… wow.  Here’s a news flash – they’ve
been doing it – constantly – since the early 70′s.    For some reason
they didn’t want Soviet Boomer subs in Hudson’s bay without
hunter-killers keeping track – and we didn’t have the subs to do it.   …

The US is already after the Arctic, – where the hell have you been? 
Specifically the Beaufort Sea and has been for years – why the hell do
you think they have never agreed on a boundry and want, as Palin points
out – to “Drill, baby drill” in it on what we claim is our side of the
boundry.   You think al those pictures of the US subs poking thorgh the
Ice are just pretty photo ops, do you?    You might want to read up on
what Soverignty means and how it is exercised a bit.

This ain’t the (19)70′s, Doug. No Soviets, I checked. My point was that the US doesn’t care that much whether we claim ‘sovereignty’ or not, because they can go through ‘our’ north any old time they please, and because our oil and gas are always theirs for the asking. At world prices, regardless of what it actually costs to produce. Look up tarsands (and of course the subsidies).  Some ‘sovereignty’.

Secondly, a three decade, $35 billion program would not only ressurrect
an industry – almost anyone in Canada – it would create one if
necessary.

If that even proves to be the case  ($12B/decade ain’t much these days).  I guess I shouldn’t begrudge any move that might create lasting jobs outside of the resource sector. However, I suspect that unless another shooting war breaks out somewhere, this will get cut back alot. To pay for overpriced single-sourced fighter planes.

And while I may not agree with all of Harper’s foreign policy, to
suggest he has “outsourced” it is rich.  Frankly, he’s the first PM
to actually have a Foreign policy and actually follow it in decades. 

There isn’t a millimeter of daylight between Harper’s  foreign policy pronouncements and those of the US. And I don’t think they’re following us…

Frankly, it make me throw up just a bit every time you refer to yourselves as “Canadian”. 

This from a French-hating Western-separatist old f4rt? Bite me.

    This ain’t the (19)70′s, Doug. No Soviets, I checked.   My point was that the US doesn’t care that much whether we claim
‘sovereignty’ or not, because they can go through ‘our’ north any old
time they please, and because our oil and gas are always theirs for the
asking. At world prices, regardless of what it actually costs to
produce. Look up tarsands (and of course the subsidies).  Some
‘sovereignty’.

Try not to show how obtuse you are Kenny – First I said “since” the “70′s not “in” the ’70′s.   You’ve got to improve your language skills.  And despite what you might think, all the Soviets didn’t just up and “poof” disappear.   They call themselves the Russian’s now, and there’s this guy, you see, name of Vladimir Putin who thought the end of the Cold war was a bad thing and he’s now doing his utmost (and a pretty good job btw) to re-equip the Russian military with a level of equipment that decreases or negates our old qualitative edge.   New boomers, carriers and what have you, he’s holding areas like the entire Ukraine hostage with Gazprom to do it and gradually reclaiming what areas (Georgia anyone??) he can to go back to the good old days.    Btw, Putin came from the KGB, he ain’t Gorbachev.  And besides, what’s the issue with charging world prices for oil?   Strange but I never saw all those vehicles coming out of Ontario sold to us at half price, why should Alberta?  Oh yeah, that’s right.   I forget that all you privileged types are entitled to it by virtue of yor superiority – as you say, Bite me.  

  There isn’t a millimeter of daylight between Harper’s  foreign policy
pronouncements and those of the US. And I don’t think they’re following
us… 

You should try reading the news outside of Toronto sometime – learning something is nothing to be ashamed of.   If you had, you would have seen just a week ago, Obama saying that the Israeli/Palestinian “national” lines should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed land swaps.   48 hours later Harper deliberately negated those parameters at a G8 meeting.     You must have some very big millimeters back in Toronto – cause with that statement, Harper took on the quartet (US, Russia, EU and China(?) and most of the rest of the world including the Arab league.   Not a millimeter, eh?  Sheeeesh!!

  This from a French-hating Western-separatist old f4rt? Bite me. 

         Stop using me to feed your hate and paranoia and ego.    The fact that I don’t think that 23% of a population should control 76% based on cultural racism doesn’t make me “hate” the French.    If I did I would be “hating” a goodly segment of my own family.     I don’t like racism – whether its based on skin colour, culture, religion or any other stipulation you want to mention.  I’ve seen too much of it.    It never solves a problem – Hutu’s and Tutsi’s were both black you notice.  So I don’t believe, like the Liberal pablum fed to us for years, that there is “good” racism and “bad” racism.    Further I don’t subscribe to the Toronto/Liberal notion that if you come from the west and talk about democratic norms, you are a “bad” racist or culturally myopic.    Again, to use your own words, bite me.     Out here the second language is Chinese (about 11%).    French is spoken by less than 1% (.O95)  China will be the next economic power and we are connected as a Rim Pac nation. Already the amount of sea traffic and container goods that leave Vancouver evey year outstrip everything on the entire east coast – including the St Lawrence Seaway – want a second language?   Then get with the program, Bucko and start practicing your “Gung hay fat choy!” cause French ain’t where its at.   But that would erase the privilege all you centrist elites and racists have so carefully built up for the last 40 years, wouldn’t it?    You wingnuts are no different than the White South Africans – you cling to every scrap of power regardless of how morally indefensible or obscene to protect yourselves and your positions of power because you think, no, you believe you are entitled to it.    So utterly convinced in your own superiority that you would see the country dissolve rather than admit that the most basic tenants of democracy should prevail.  And then you get all upset when the rest of us start flipping you the bird,  afraid that we will take your bankroll and go our own way and leave you clutching your empty jar of moral superiority all alone.   Gee, I just can’t tell you how much I worry about that for you.

       And as to being a Western Separatist?    Deal with it, after all, it was all you egotistical,  superior-minded left wing believers in the Western financed Nanny state that created us.  Besides, who knows?  Maybe after 5 or 10  (30 or 40?) years of Conservative governments, we can fix what the Liberals have broken so badly.  What was it, someting like 81 % of the population voted against them – it would appear that Canadians from coast to coast are throwing off their blinders.  Perhaps there is something worth saving yet.

    This ain’t the (19)70′s, Doug. No Soviets, I checked.   My point was that the US doesn’t care that much whether we claim
‘sovereignty’ or not, because they can go through ‘our’ north any old
time they please, and because our oil and gas are always theirs for the
asking. At world prices, regardless of what it actually costs to
produce. Look up tarsands (and of course the subsidies).  Some
‘sovereignty’.

Try not to show how obtuse you are Kenny – First I said “since” the “70′s not “in” the ’70′s.   You’ve got to improve your language skills.  And despite what you might think, all the Soviets didn’t just up and “poof” disappear.   They call themselves the Russian’s now, and there’s this guy, you see, name of Vladimir Putin who thought the end of the Cold war was a bad thing and he’s now doing his utmost (and a pretty good job btw) to re-equip the Russian military with a level of equipment that decreases or negates our old qualitative edge.   New boomers, carriers and what have you, he’s holding areas like the entire Ukraine hostage with Gazprom to do it and gradually reclaiming what areas (Georgia anyone??) he can to go back to the good old days.    Btw, Putin came from the KGB, he ain’t Gorbachev.  And besides, what’s the issue with charging world prices for oil?   Strange but I never saw all those vehicles coming out of Ontario sold to us at half price, why should Alberta?  Oh yeah, that’s right.   I forget that all you privileged types are entitled to it by virtue of yor superiority – as you say, Bite me.  

  There isn’t a millimeter of daylight between Harper’s  foreign policy
pronouncements and those of the US. And I don’t think they’re following
us… 

You should try reading the news outside of Toronto sometime – learning something is nothing to be ashamed of.   If you had, you would have seen just a week ago, Obama saying that the Israeli/Palestinian “national” lines should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed land swaps.   48 hours later Harper deliberately negated those parameters at a G8 meeting.     You must have some very big millimeters back in Toronto – cause with that statement, Harper took on the quartet (US, Russia, EU and China(?) and most of the rest of the world including the Arab league.   Not a millimeter, eh?  Sheeeesh!!

  This from a French-hating Western-separatist old f4rt? Bite me. 

         Stop using me to feed your hate and paranoia and ego.    The fact that I don’t think that 23% of a population should control 76% based on cultural racism doesn’t make me “hate” the French.    If I did I would be “hating” a goodly segment of my own family.     I don’t like racism – whether its based on skin colour, culture, religion or any other stipulation you want to mention.  I’ve seen too much of it.    It never solves a problem – Hutu’s and Tutsi’s were both black you notice.  So I don’t believe, like the Liberal pablum fed to us for years, that there is “good” racism and “bad” racism.    Further I don’t subscribe to the Toronto/Liberal notion that if you come from the west and talk about democratic norms, you are a “bad” racist or culturally myopic.    Again, to use your own words, bite me.     Out here the second language is Chinese (about 11%).    French is spoken by less than 1% (.O95)  China will be the next economic power and we are connected as a Rim Pac nation. Already the amount of sea traffic and container goods that leave Vancouver evey year outstrip everything on the entire east coast – including the St Lawrence Seaway – want a second language?   Then get with the program, Bucko and start practicing your “Gung hay fat choy!” cause French ain’t where its at.   But that would erase the privilege all you centrist elites and racists have so carefully built up for the last 40 years, wouldn’t it?    You wingnuts are no different than the White South Africans – you cling to every scrap of power regardless of how morally indefensible or obscene to protect yourselves and your positions of power because you think, no, you believe you are entitled to it.    So utterly convinced in your own superiority that you would see the country dissolve rather than admit that the most basic tenants of democracy should prevail.  And then you get all upset when the rest of us start flipping you the bird,  afraid that we will take your bankroll and go our own way and leave you clutching your empty jar of moral superiority all alone.   Gee, I just can’t tell you how much I worry about that for you.

       And as to being a Western Separatist?    Deal with it, after all, it was all you egotistical,  superior-minded left wing believers in the Western financed Nanny state that created us.  Besides, who knows?  Maybe after 5 or 10  (30 or 40?) years of Conservative governments, we can fix what the Liberals have broken so badly.  What was it, someting like 81 % of the population voted against them – it would appear that Canadians from coast to coast are throwing off their blinders.  Perhaps there is something worth saving yet.

We should never again go to Quebec to build ships any larger than a canoe.     For decades the (East Coast) Navy sent their ships up to Quebec for refits and ship after ship they were unmitigated disasters.   When HMCS Ottawa went up in 74, what came down was supposed to be a pristine warship ready to go to sea for another four years – it took two years to fix her up enough for her to sail.  What they did to HMCS Algonquin in her Trump refit by breaking her back in the Srydock and burning her twice, should have made the government sue them into receivership.   And neither of those we exceptions  – Assinboine, Nipigon and the rest were routinely destroyed when they went up for refits. 
 Conversely, having commissioned one of the new frigates from SJSL as the Chief Engineer,  I can tell you that Irving doesn’t give a damn about giving the country good ships – everything they do is based on then raping the government.   They pay and treat their people like crap.    Besides, 48 hours after the last frigate sailed from St John, they had no expertise left – they had laid it all off.    So while the west (all the new ORCA Class vessels and the new MLBs for the Coast Guard were built by VLS/Seaspan under time and in budget) certainly has a better project management and shipbuilding expertise in house, its fair to say that any yard in Canada will have to hire and tool up to build a Naval vessel dueto the incredible complexity of them including the design.    It would also be fair to say that Irving was furious at being told they had to build two of the frigates in Quebec and lorded it over those yards for every nut, bolt and weld.   So in a bizzaree twist of fate – having two ships built in Quebec while being managed by a pissed off Prime contractor from out of province, did built some good ships.   Moreover, the Frigates built by Irving at SJSL are still pretty good ships, but they have been now been run by th e Navy for almost teo decades.
   As to the strtegic location, given that ships are by nature assets that can be moved, I’m not sure that is a very big issue but strategically, with China’s rise and the rebirth of Russia as well as our close work with the US, a strategic advantage if any is utterly locked in with the west coast. to add to that, if you’re building/assembling a ship outside weather is a huge issue  -  every try preheating a hull to weld in minus 30?   So it would cost less and be faster on the West coast as well.
With that said though, the truth is that politics will play a part.  What they should do is give the non-combatant ships to the east and the more critical and harder to build Naval combat vessels to the west.   That way it costs less and everybody gets a piece of the pie.

We should never again go to Quebec to build ships any larger than a canoe.     For decades the (East Coast) Navy sent their ships up to Quebec for refits and ship after ship they were unmitigated disasters.   When HMCS Ottawa went up in 74, what came down was supposed to be a pristine warship ready to go to sea for another four years – it took two years to fix her up enough for her to sail.  What they did to HMCS Algonquin in her Trump refit by breaking her back in the Srydock and burning her twice, should have made the government sue them into receivership.   And neither of those we exceptions  – Assinboine, Nipigon and the rest were routinely destroyed when they went up for refits. 
 Conversely, having commissioned one of the new frigates from SJSL as the Chief Engineer,  I can tell you that Irving doesn’t give a damn about giving the country good ships – everything they do is based on then raping the government.   They pay and treat their people like crap.    Besides, 48 hours after the last frigate sailed from St John, they had no expertise left – they had laid it all off.    So while the west (all the new ORCA Class vessels and the new MLBs for the Coast Guard were built by VLS/Seaspan under time and in budget) certainly has a better project management and shipbuilding expertise in house, its fair to say that any yard in Canada will have to hire and tool up to build a Naval vessel dueto the incredible complexity of them including the design.    It would also be fair to say that Irving was furious at being told they had to build two of the frigates in Quebec and lorded it over those yards for every nut, bolt and weld.   So in a bizzaree twist of fate – having two ships built in Quebec while being managed by a pissed off Prime contractor from out of province, did built some good ships.   Moreover, the Frigates built by Irving at SJSL are still pretty good ships, but they have been now been run by th e Navy for almost teo decades.
   As to the strtegic location, given that ships are by nature assets that can be moved, I’m not sure that is a very big issue but strategically, with China’s rise and the rebirth of Russia as well as our close work with the US, a strategic advantage if any is utterly locked in with the west coast. to add to that, if you’re building/assembling a ship outside weather is a huge issue  -  every try preheating a hull to weld in minus 30?   So it would cost less and be faster on the West coast as well.
With that said though, the truth is that politics will play a part.  What they should do is give the non-combatant ships to the east and the more critical and harder to build Naval combat vessels to the west.   That way it costs less and everybody gets a piece of the pie.

What’s new?

Hey, Liz, not much. Sigh.