Ignatieff the tall poppy?
Michael Ignatieff’s year in Canadian politics has been marked by ups and downs. He walked into the Liberal leadership earlier last year acclaimed as the new leader of that party after the failed attempt by Stephane Dion. In order to differentiate himself as a different kind of leader — one that could stand tall — he sought to wrestle a concession from the Conservative government on EI reform in May. Indeed, what has plagued the previous two leaders, first Martin and then Dion, was the lack of firm roots in the ground. The Liberal crop blew about as the party that defines itself as the broader middle, and one that tries to be everything to everyone, was finding itself without a firm foothold. Martin tried to branch out in all directions while Dion let the budding weeds of the Conservative party grow throughout the parliamentary plot.
However, under Ignatieff, the Liberals have not fared too much better and any planting has soon after been uprooted. On EI, for example, the ultimatum given was then rescinded — a concession for a “blue ribbon” panel to study the policy, insincerely under the watch of the Conservative Party’s Pierre Poilievre and the Liberal’s Marlene Jennings. And then inthe fall, Ignatieff must have too believed that it was a firm and definitive stand that the party lacked in supply. Ignatieff made another bold pronouncement, this time that the Liberals would no longer support the government. He hoped to give the Grits new growth, but at the same he marked the party for a brutal harvesting.
Canadians, both in the media and those that follow politics to a lesser degree, apply the tall poppy syndrome to those that would deal in our trust in our democracy. When Michael Ignatieff famously told Stephen Harper that “[his] time was up”, this focused attention squarely upon Ignatieff. The questions shifted from Stephen Harper to Michael Ignatieff.
Why do you say his time is up?
Why are you seeking an election?
Why are you seeking an election now?
What is your plan, Mr. Ignatieff?
And as the tall poppy syndrome goes for Canadians, suddenly we saw an opposition leader that we hardly knew ready to take down the government, for no real comprehensible reason. The Conservative narrative built around Ignatieff was that he was “just visiting” and that “he’s only in it for himself”. Ignatieff found that while he may have been trying to shift focus off of himself and onto the other parties supporting the government in the House, he found that now he was getting too much sunlight. Subsequently, Ignatieff’s poll numbers were pecked at and the Conservatives got new space to grow while journalists started to mention “majority”.
And then Stephen Harper prorogued Parliament. For what seemed like a routine parliamentary procedure for anyone who, well, knows parliamentary procedure, the media-driven perception was that Mr. Harper was tempting the Tall Poppy prejudice of Canadians. Whereas Mr. Ignatieff sought power for no discernible reason, rightly or wrongly the prorogation of parliament was perceived by many observers as an arrogance of power. The narrative worked, the sunlight became too intense and the Prime Minister’s poll numbers wilted. This time, Stephen Harper’s poppies got a trim from the Canadian public.
Perhaps this is to be the lesson learned about Canadian politics in the past 16 months. The first example of slicing our politics back down to size during this period was the coalition attempt by the Liberals and NDP supported by the Bloc Quebecois in December of 2008. Just seven weeks after an election that had returned a Prime Minister to power, the opposition sought to reverse the perceived order that had come from ballots. This time, the arrogance and ambition of power befell the opposition. While many Canadians saw the Bloc’s involvement in brokering a government as poison, many others were appalled by the perceived unfairness of the move. The opposition tried to stand too tall and were trimmed.
Now, as Michael Ignatieff faces poll numbers on par with Stephen Harper, will he be tempted by power? How will he manage the perceptions of the Canadian electorate? Will a defeat of the government now be perceived to be opportunism?
Anyone that seeks power to govern possesses a certain arrogance and anyone that attains power possesses the strategic skill. Therefore, in Canadian politics, arrogance and crass raw political strategy must be seen to be the character of one’s opponent. When government falls to trigger an election, Ignatieff and Harper will do their best to let the other poppy be boastful and stand too tall.
Stephen Taylor is a scientist, political analyst and a blogger. Taylor writes here regularly and is the founder of bloggingtories.ca. Taylor has contributed to Macleans, CTV, talk radio and has been a featured speaker on new media at numerous events including the Western Standard Cruise and the Forum for Public Policy. In December 2008, Taylor organized Rally for Canada, a series of rallies held coast-to-coast to protest the proposed coalition government.
February 13th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
I have always maintained that Mr. Ignatieff (all nicknames aside) would be condemned by his own words, and that his true colours would become evident to all who are willing to see. This will still take time to reach a pivotal fruition, but it will be what it is, in the due course of time, subsequent to additional ebbs and flows in the House, while the plankless Opposition tests for cracks in our government's representative structure. If mainstream Canadians can ignore the pathetic panderings of mainstream media, we should still be okay.
February 13th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
That's a fair analysis of the current situation.
My only small quibble: For what seemed like a routine parliamentary procedure for anyone who, well, knows parliamentary procedure… nope. This prorogue was ill=timed and unwelcome to most Canadians, experts and otherwise. Harper had the arrogance to state publicly that the public wouldn't care. Well… alot of us do.
February 14th, 2010 at 4:17 am
Yeah, it's untimely for one reason, it interfered with the rhythm the media and the Opposition had going in their gotcha games.
I defy anyone to state one instance where this prorogation has altered their lives or affected them in any way aside from those addicted to politics and the daily exchange of juvenile nonsense in QP.
February 14th, 2010 at 4:57 am
Absolutely true….The opposition and the media thought they had Harper over the barrel on the detainee issue. So when Harper prorogued they knew whatever momentum they had evaporated. So what next? Attack the PM for being undemocratic etc. etc. Out came the torqued headlines and the outrageous columns and of course the breathless counting of facebook particpants. Canadians who do not follow politics daily naturally assumed the PM had done something very bad. The polls reflected that.
For those that criticize prorogation what has changed in your life and the life of the nation? No Question Period? Thank God. Breathless headlines about detainees which are loaded with speculation and no facts? Canadians in fact do not care about the torture of detainees in Afghanistan. They are killing our military people. It is war and shit happens.
So to kenn2 and others who are so incensed over prorogation tell us whose rights have been permanently denied. The legistlation that dropped from the order paper will be reinstated. The committess will be started again and the beloved detainee issue can be resumed with all the fervour that the opposition and the media desire. Again who has been denied their fundamental rights? In fact I would suggest democracy by way of a throne speech and budget is more democratic than the discussion about detainees. More importantly if the opposition believes their rehtoric they have no choice but to defeat the government and force an election. Trouble is they are cowards. They know they will be defeated. So what is left. Sniping from the sidelines both by the media and the opposition parties. No guts no glory. Ask your opposition leaders to have the courage of their “convictions” after all they say the democratic rights of the country have been destroyed by the government.
February 14th, 2010 at 6:26 am
What you say is true, LizJ. Prorogation has not affected my life one iota. I don't know why this is a big deal to 'most Canadians'. I don't think one person could even guess as to how it affected his or her life. The only time government action affects my own life is when it adds to the cost of living: like McGuinty is doing to us in Ontario with his health tax (which does not go into the health care system, BTW), the HST which will significantly increase our cost of living, and time of use electricity billing which will most likely double or triple our hydro bills. Prorogation? Hasn't touched my life.
Kenn2: How, exactly, has prorogation affected your life? This is a serious question. Can you give me at least one example how it has affected your life? Thanks.
February 14th, 2010 at 7:20 am
Nice false test there Liz.
It is not about prorogation ruining my life. It is about Harper lying to the Canadian people, and then proroguing to prevent the opposition from exposing that lie.
It is about accountability. You know what that is, right? Remember when Harper was promising to be accountable?
Good times. Good times…
February 14th, 2010 at 7:21 am
Adscam has not affected my life one iota. Since that seems to be the test for what is good and bad in government, will you people stop complaining about it now?
February 14th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Gayle, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. These tory types all talk about the Liberal past and never ever get into debtae about Harpo's lies except to defend them.
I continue to repeat this will go down as the most unethical government when all the facts are known. In the meantime the opposition just keeps the tempo flowing and the current scandals and or lies in the news.
The apologists like Liz J and her fan club cannot think past the Liberal past and their own party is doing worse things afte rpassing a law supposedly to make them more accountable to us.
February 14th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Gayle: AdScam involved money going from the public coffers to private persons for nefarous purposes.
I'm not sure you want Parnel in your corner. You may be contrary but you're not a blatant and unrepentant liar nor are you ignorant beyond belief as is Parnel. I may disagree 99% of the time with you but you have, to the best of my knowledge, ever sunk anywhere close to Parnel's level.
February 14th, 2010 at 10:04 am
I would also counter that the faux LPC surplus nor the alleged CPC deficit affect my life one iota. Now, how did the LPC affect my life? Paul Martin decreased transfer payments and my life was affected two ways: the province began downloading programs to the municipal level and my property taxes skyrocketed. The health care system suffered financially and McGuinty added a health tax – which does not, incidentally, go into health care. As somebody who is going through a round of treatment and tests at the moment, I can tell you that our hospitals are suffering…thanks to the previous Chretien government.
Hmmm. Haven't heard back from Kenn2, as yet. I'm curious as to how his life has been affected by prorogation.
February 14th, 2010 at 10:46 am
east of eden…..sorry to disappont you but the levels I sink to are to reach the depths of depravity we have reached by allowing your favorite party to stay in power.
February 14th, 2010 at 11:53 am
You're correct about one thing – we, as in the Canadian people, have allowed the CPC to remain in power. We, the Canadian people, did not allow the LPC to take the reins again and bankrupt the country in every sense of the word. Let's face it, bad as you may thing PM Harper is, the majority of Canadian people did not vote the LPC into power. No matter how you slice it, no matter how it is spun, we Canadians who bothered to get out and vote, voted the CPC into power. Ignatieff is so desperate for an issue that he even brought out the old abortion issue which…is not an issue. That's how desperate he is – even some of the left of center media is coming down on him for his nervousness and lack of effectiveness. As a supporter of all things CPC, I am thrilled with the American, Ignatieff, as leader of the LPC and I hope he enjoys many more years as the unelected, undemocratically (in violation of the Candian way), appointed leader of the LPC.
February 14th, 2010 at 11:53 am
I am proud and happy to count myself as a member of the LizJ fan club.
February 14th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Actually Gayle, I had directed my question at Kenn2 who seems to be quite bothered by the prorogation. I am simply very interested in knowing why, exactly. But thanks for weighing in, just the same.
February 14th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
I'll stop complaining the day they start paying back what they stole.
February 14th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
east of eden…you continue to miss the fact that your guiy is now very unpopular and getting even more so as the days go by. There is a reason for that and its called arrogance, lies and unethical behaviour.
When you understand that hopefully it won't be too late and the party will slavage some seats outside of Alberta. But, its not looking good as the polls do show trends.
February 14th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
So what? Did your life change as a result? That is, after all, the test.
February 14th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
I think you should blame Mulroney for that.
Or do you not care about paying down the deficit that ballooned under his watch?
February 14th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
So?
February 14th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
You mean besides the bills that died unborn, or the committee work that is on hold, or the suspension of formal Parliamentary accountability?
Perhaps it's more interesting for you to contemplate what hasn't been altered by this prorogue:
- leaders still underestimate the public's intelligence
- at elections, politicians will promise to change the way things are done (openness, accountability, respectability) but once they're elected, its business as usual and they'll use any means at hand, regardless of what they promised or what they despised their predecessors for doing
So, remind me again how the CPC is going to make federal government better?
February 14th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Look, the gutlessness is in the CPC. They've run and hid, when they should have stood fore-square and continued. Taunting the opposition into triggering an election is pretty lame too.
Most here already know what i think of armchair chickenhawks who use the troops as pawns in their cheap rationalizations.
But let's for the moment consider the prorogue as you see it. If, as you say the bills will all be rerailed, the committees will resume just as before, then WTF was the point of calling a snap prorogue on Dec 31, instead of, say, Feb 1 or Feb 8? It's just be a timewaster to call it earlier than that.
February 14th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
Tell you what. You tell me how proroguing on Dec 30 instead of waiting til Feb 1 was actually good for Canada, and if you're at all convincing, I'll comply.
February 14th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
You have been told the business of proroguing but you don't want to here it because of your hatred for all things CPC.
Harper wanted to recalibrate the government and as it turned out he wanted to do a minor cabinet shuffle, he wanted to prepare a throne speech, a budget and most of all he wanted control of the Senate committees to assist in getting his legislation through.
I am not taunting the opposition into doing anything. However, they should be held accountable for their over the topic rhetoric. How can you say the PM dissrespects Parliament, is an affront to demcracy and with their buddies in the media call the PM of the country names including a dictator. They need to held to accountable for those outrageous statements.
If they truly believe what they are saying there is no other option but to vote non confidence in the government and force an election. Read Angelo Perschilli column today inthe Star. The opposition has responsibilities as well as the government.
Now you are offended at the date of prorogation rather than the prorogation itself.
Once again it is tough to get it through the haters of the Conservatives but I will say it again. Prorogation is a legitimate tool of the government and was used by Bob Rae many times as Premier of Ontario to avoid accountability. No matter the reason the PM has the right to prorogue regardless of whether you and others agree with it or the reasons.
If it was a waste of time then just relax and according to you, others and the media Harper will get his just desserts.
February 14th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Hey. I now have more insight into why the CPC and friends automatically attack the person instead of the issue. It's because you lot will say ANYTHING the CPC tells you to, so you must naturally think that everyone else must also be shills, if they ever in their life had the faintest whiff of Liberal sympathy. Fortunately there are still many people who retain a capacity for independent thought.
Where were you in early December? We talked the prorogue reasons to death in that thread. I hope you'll revisit that thread so i don't have to waste everyone elses time and my fingers by rehashing that. You can repeat the well-polished “everyone prorogues/media bias” spin till you hyperventilate; it still doesn't represent the truth.
Now you are offended at the date of prorogation rather than the prorogation itself. What I am offended by is pretty plain in the referenced prorogue thread and elsewhere. If you are unclear, look it up. Why won't you answer the question (why Dec 30 and not Feb 1)?
Finally, just because you are Liberal (oops sorry – Librano) haterz, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'm a Harper-hater. It so happens that I am not a card-carrying knee-jerk partisan, Liberal or otherwise .I've publicly praised him here and elsewhere for things he's done that I approve of. I'd have more praise for him if he and the CPC started showing some of that accountability, openness and respect for parliament that he promised at election time.
What do you think – is Harper delivering on the agenda he promised to Canada? He's a competent PM, but then so were most previous PMs. What's changed for the positive on Harper's watch?
February 14th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Kenn2…they will return to being in opposition where they belong. Governing is for responsible big boys
February 15th, 2010 at 4:19 am
Have to repeat, prorogation has not changed a thing in our lives. It differs greatly from Adscam,in that it's part of our system, it's allowed under our Constitution and has been used since Confederation at the discretion of the PM. Chretien was a big fan as was Trudeau.
Adscam was/is pure thievery, millions of our tax dollars tossed to the wind to buy Quebec votes never to be accounted for. Someone had to enable it. Mr Gagliano was in charge of the file. When questioned on it in the HOC he replied: “I did what I was told”, so who told him?
We all recall Chretien's reply, “what's a few million”? Somehow he felt it was worth it,using unity as an excuse. It had the opposite effect, the Quebec people were not amused.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:25 am
So, what the Chretien government also gutless the countless times it prorogued? And the McGuinty government? Are you saying that prorogation is bad no matter which party prorogues? Or only if Harper prorogues? Please clarify. Thanks.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:30 am
Hmmm – we never had a deficit until Trudeau but let's not let that fact get in the way. To be honest, the deficit is just a number which is cooked up and used for political purposes. The real money is the debt – how much of it is owed to non-Canadian interests is what concerns me. The deficit and surplus figures can be manufactured and, to be honest, are only used to make a party look bad or good. Debt is the real issue, not the deficit or surplus. As we found out, the Chretien surpluses were false surpluses, anyway.
As for the current alleged deficit, I doubt if the reality is as high as Ignatieff is saying because, according to him, the money for stimulus has not flowed in any significant amounts. Either we do have a high alleged deficit or we don't – it can't be both ways. If the stimulus money has not flowed, we don't have a deficit caused by government. And, let's not forget one pesky fact: Ignatieff threatened to bring down the government if a stimulus package was not robust – Ignatieff blackmailed our PM into spending money which he now says should not be spent – but it should flow more quickly. Let's face it, Ignatieff doesn't remember from one minute to the next what he says and frankly, what he says is contradictory and desperate.
So, as for the deficit – it is an artificial number and affects nobody. Debt does affect us and this should be the focus, not an artificial political number.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:31 am
Sorry, Kenn2 – you have to answer the question. I'm fine with prorogation but you are not so I'm asking why. If you can't answer, then I will have to presume that you are just trotting out a speaking point.
Thanks for the wishes – I'm getting great care but it does pain me to see peeling paint, cracked walls, etc. in a world-class hospital due to our provincial government's ineptitude and Martin's former cuts to transfer payments.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:59 am
Getting dizzy from spinning?
February 15th, 2010 at 7:11 am
Fine. Go here http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2009/12/the-case-fo... and search the page for “kenn2″.
Seriously, we're now discussing history. Harper prorogued when he did, he's already taken his lumps for it in the polls, most people have moved on, and probably without having to get all revisionist on it. Why can't you people?
I've spent alot more time than I ever wanted to in hospitals over the last 5 years, visiting relatives and some friends. I've seen the cracked walls and the beds in halls. They didn't start to crack a week after McGuinty was elected, or when Martin behaved in a fiscally responsible manner. I notice you left out Mike Harris… Anyway, health care is too large and complex an issue to be resolved by finger-pointing. It requires leadership. What's Harper going to do for health care? Privatize it? Two-tier?
February 15th, 2010 at 7:39 am
You guys play pretend more than most 5-year-olds. The issue was NOT that Harper prorogued, It was WHEN he prorogued, and in particular WHY he prorogued: to hide from a committee, and from Parliament. This is leadership?
He could have achieved all the other aims – new stacked Senate, Throne speech and budget etc etc by proroguing just before the Olympics.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:48 am
Well that is avoiding the point. You seem to be learning from Harper.
The debt Chretien inherited from Mulroney was much higher than that Mulroney inherited from Trudeau. Someone had to do something about it, and thankfully we were in the very capable hands of Chretien and Martin.
You should be thankful – because of their solid fiscal management Harper inherited a 12 billion dollar surplus. Sure he frittered it away, but it has likely kept him in office far longer than he deserved.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:50 am
So now you are creating a new test?
The test is whether it changes our lives when the issue is prorogation. The test is something else entirely when your first test does not fit and you still want to whine about the liberals.
Thanks for proving you have no idea what you are talking about…yet again.
February 15th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Kenn2…dead on!!!
February 15th, 2010 at 9:05 am
If the debt was so big, how come both Chretien and Martin stashed away “surpluses” instead of paying down the debt as Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government have been doing since 2006?
And how come Chretien created slush fun … er … special funds that couldn't be audited by Sheila Fraser and her team?
The Librano$ were specialists in moving public monies around, in using them for their own political gain, and in covering up their nefarious activities. It's little wonder Justice John Gomery accused the LPC of operating within “a culture of corruption.”
That's nothing to be proud of, Gayle, or to ignore. Own up to it: The political party of your choice is guilty of bid-rigging, political interference, fraud, thievery, and thuggery. Canadians need a time out from these shysters and it's just too bad Liberal$ and their supporters just. don't. get. it.
The rest of us do get it, and we're heaving a sigh of relief that the Liberal$ are not in power and are in such disarray — which, sadly, hasn't stopped them from being sore losers and total jerks as they manufacture weekly scandals they hope will stick to the CPC. Ignatieff needs to put up or shut up, vote no confidence in the CPC or begin to co-operate with the sitting government to the benefit of all Canadians.
I guess that one measure of an honourable political party, as opposed to an entitled, petulant one, is how they perform when in Opposition. It's easy to appear to be magnanimous when you're the king of the castle but much more difficult when you're relegated to just a member of the court. So far, the LPC has shown no grace as courtiers, just malignant buffoonery as court jesters.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Amusing to now have the Liberal apologists saying it's time to forget about Adscam, they think we should stop talking about it while they're still going on about Mulroney and KHS which didn't involve taxpayers' money at all and happened decades ago.
We will not forget ADSCAM. It's money owed us, the thieves must return it, until then we keep talking about it as the biggest political scam in our history. We shall NEVER forget.
February 15th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
So, nothing, right? Kenn2 – you do avoid answering questions, don't you.
February 15th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
As I say, Gayle – the surplus/deficit is a meaningless political tool. Eves showed a surplus and McGuinty showed it as a deficit. Who do we believe? The deficit means nothing to me – it's just a manufactured number. It is not real dollars or real debt.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Shorter BATB.
I hate the liberals. Hate hate hate them.
Wah!
Anyway, for those of us who want to stay on topic, it is Liz's assertion that something that does not change our lives does not matter.
Adscam did not change my life. I can see that it changed yours. It made you into an irrational bitter person who really can not piece together a persuasive argument.
Or maybe you were always like that. Who knows.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Amusing how the conbots cannot even remember how we got onto this topic.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
That is pretty convenient East.
If the argument is going south, pretend things that are relevant are not relevant, and pretend things that exist do not exist.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
-sigh- copy of answer given to LizJ
You guys play pretend more than most 5-year-olds. The issue was NOT that Harper prorogued, It was WHEN he prorogued, and in particular WHY he prorogued: to hide from a committee, and from Parliament. This is leadership?
He could have achieved all the other aims – new stacked Senate, Throne speech and budget etc etc by proroguing just before the Olympics.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
east, you must be a minister in harpo's cabinet with double speak like that.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
I won't forget the income trust lie either. Its money that was stolen by harper's broken promises
February 15th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Hate isn't in my vocabulary. Check again.
Facts are, however.
'Funny how Liberal$ pull out the hate card whenever they're faced by the facts. It's a fact that Liberal$ don't know how to argue a point but are very adept at ad hominems. They've perfected them, seeing as they've reverted to them so often.
Ad hominems are their main stock and trade. That's all they've got.
Agreed, Liz. There's no forgetting AdScam, one of the worst, most cynical, swindling rip-offs of the Canadian electorate by a Canadian political party.
Chretien: “What's a few million?”
Justice John Gomery: The Liberals operate within “a culture of corruption.”
It's all on the record.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
“Adscam did not change my life.”
Maybe not. But Adscam changed the whole political culture of Canada. With it, Canada entered a period of political activity completely corrupted by the Liberal$' self-serving, criminal behaviour. I'm waiting for more Liberal$ involved in the con job to be sentenced and serve some jail time.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Nanos Leadership Index. Feb. 8th.
====================================
The most trustworthy leader Stephen Harper: 25.0% (-4.3)
Jack Layton: 20.8% (+4.4)
Michael Ignatieff: 10.4% (-0.5)
Elizabeth May: 9.8% (+5.2)
Gilles Duceppe: 7.8% (+1.5)
None of them/Undecided: 26.2% (-6.4)
The most competent leader Stephen Harper: 33.6% (-1.7)
Jack Layton: 14.2% (+3.4)
Michael Ignatieff: 13.9% (+0.6)
Gilles Duceppe: 6.5% (+0.8)
Elizabeth May: 3.4% (+1.1)
None of them/Undecided: 28.4% (-4.2)
The leader with the best vision for Canada’s future Stephen Harper: 26.8% (-3.2)
Jack Layton: 17.2% (+3.2)
Michael Ignatieff: 16.0% (+1.2)
Elizabeth May: 6.4% (+3.6)
Gilles Duceppe: 2.9% (-0.5)
None of them/Undecided: 30.7% (-4.2)
Leadership Index Score Stephen Harper: 85.4 (-9.2)
Jack Layton: 52.2 (+11.0)
Michael Ignatieff: 40.3 (+1.3)
Elizabeth May: 19.6 (+9.9)
Gilles Duceppe: 17.2 (+1.8)
February 15th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
batb…the tories run a culture of avoiding democracy which is our “raison d'etre” as a Country. Harper might as well be Stalin in terms of democracy.
February 15th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Frank, do some comparisons. Check and see how popular Harper was 18 months or so into his leadership. Check on Chretien at the same point in time.
These polls are useless.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Your claim that “hate” is not in your vocabulary rings hollow when all the other words in your vocabulary cleary demonstrate you hate the liberals.
If only merely saying something magically made it come true…
February 15th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Actually, as Harper has demonstrated over the past four years, Adscam did not change the political culture at all.
In any event, the issue here is that only things that change your life count. If they did not change your life you have to shut up about them.
Just ask Liz.
February 16th, 2010 at 9:20 am
Uh oh. Gayle is into name-calling and we all know what that means.
February 16th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Ah, sockpuppet speaking point number 127. First of all, I don't believe you have income trusts, Parnel but aside from that, it was not money stolen out of pockets directly. However, after going all ballistic over it, the LPC promised to eliminate…er…restore…er…wait a minute – slightly reduce the tax. Funny how your beloved LPC didn't promise to turn the situation around. Funny, is it not? Maybe our government needed the money to repay the unpaid LPC elections loans (extended again) or the EI money stolen from the fund, or to give money to our Health Care system which was broken by Martin.
February 16th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Really? Conbots is a “name”?
You are pretty thin skinned.
February 16th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Now Gayle, stop putting words in my mouth. I said that, TO ME, the deficit is meaningless and that TO ME, the debt is meaningful. I did not say what existed or not. I merely said what was meaningful and meaningless to me. Do not read into something that which is not there. Nice try, though. Besides, I don't debate with you – I already tried that, remember? So, there is no argument to go south or any other direction.
February 16th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
I don't know anybody named Harpo.
February 16th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Okay, parnel, you lose the argument: “Harper might as well be Stalin …”
As for avoiding democracy, you don't think moving public monies around and placing them in not-able-to-be-audited accounts, using taxpayers' money for their own political gain, bid-rigging, political interference, fraud, thievery, and thuggery have the effect of avoiding democracy on the part of the LPC?
I figure that the problem is that the LPC and their cheerleaders, which would include you, have been so immersed in a culture of corruption that they don't know good government when they experience it. Seeing as their only goal is power at all costs, they have no ability to discern good from bad governance when they're out of power.
Too bad. So sad.
February 16th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
I don't hate Liberals. I know a lot of Liberals.
I hate a lot of the things they do.
I've discovered that lefties can't distinguish between hating what people/parties do and hating people/parties.
For Liberals, to hate a person's politics is to hate the person. It's the same thing.
But, that's not how I operate.
I wouldn't expect you to understand this, however.
February 16th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
“Thanks for proving you have no idea what you are talking about…yet again.”
Do you still agree with your mother about the Conservatives possibly causing your father's cancer?
February 16th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
I undertand it. I just don't believe you.
February 16th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
“sigh”..? That's Gayle method. heh.
kenn2 you claim the CPC is using the military as pawns. Can you back that up ?
Of couse the media ignored the way Ignatief and McCallum insulted our military. I guess they get the thumbs up from the Libs and the likes of you.
February 16th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Nice troll.
I discussed that back in early January's prorogue thread if you're genuinely interested.
February 16th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
So?
As G*d is my witness …
February 16th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
I am trying to understand how his numbers are significantly better than in 2009 when the media were celebrating his honeymoon. The NDP have recovered for the most part in every region. The Liberals were ahead by a few points for several months and within 5-7 points for the rest. We had a double digit increase take hold for 4 weeks after his declaration of “Your time is up”.
This time he should NOT declare it ahead and just pull the plug. The coalition deal does not expire and is still valid.
February 16th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Sorry kenn2 same people from pro-coalition movement. Too many NDP organizers and partisan playing a chief part is staging this tiny protest. Less than 20k bothered to show up.
February 16th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
A small number of MP have lost access to their regular massage on the hill. The nerve of the government to delay 22 sitting days! The horror!
February 16th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Run and hide? Sounds too familiar.
The CPC have been in power since 2006 and the opposition have NEVER moved a motion of non-confidence. They have talked about it and we all know how that turned out for Dion. In November 2009 voters had four by elections and sent back two more CPC to Ottawa. The brilliant voters decided the Liberals are still not fit to govern and sent ZERO. The NDP and Bloc both won a seat!
February 16th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Heh. Must have been the right 20k people to have affected the polls that much.
February 16th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
What polls? I keep looking at the Liberal only have 77 seats. The CPC have 145. Remind me again what polls are you referring too?
Before I forget the ZERO for Four Polls in November 2009?
February 16th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Any poll. From December to February, the CPC shed 15 points, to end up tied with the Liberals in popular support. Nice going, Mr H…
February 16th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
You mean unofficial Polls. Gotcha! I enjoy having Liberals refer to specific Polls demanding they mean something and than deny official Polls where voters actually have to do something.
Like the Facebook Group. Click the mouse and than show up with a pre-printed sign. How does it feel being unable to transfer any gains in official Polls to the actual seats?
February 16th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Ask me that question in about 9 to 18 months. Might be longer if the CPC have to hold a leadership convention first.
February 16th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
The point is, if you want someone to accept you do not hate the liberals, you probably should not act like you hate the liberals.
That is all.
February 16th, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Ha ha ha.
Nice try.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:23 am
Discernment, my dear friend, discernment.
As I pointed out earlier, l/Liberals seem entirely incapable of distinguishing between dislike and distaste of someone's point of view and dislike of the person expressing that point of view, and there's not much I can do about that.
The ball's in your court, Gayle.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:23 am
I am perfectly capable of understanding that someone who decides to characterize an entire group of people, labelling them as either “lefties” or “lieberals”, as having particular disagreeable character traits, is a bigot, and bigotry is based in hatred.
Do have a nice day though.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:27 am
You know who else thinks they mean something? Stephen Harper.
Hence the “Lets go to the US and Chat About Hockey” super tour 2010.
I thought he was supposed to be recalibrating???
February 17th, 2010 at 7:54 am
Sadly Gayle you don't like our democracy and how it works. The current political parties are spliting the votes and give the current gov't a clear majority with winning 57% of the seats outside Quebec.
Your frustration and inability to grow beyond a 20k national protest after a heavy rotation by the national media and the NDP organizers has only made you MORE bitter and angry.
I am not here to defend your disgust for our democracy in Canada. The Liberals since 2000 have been unable to exploit the same system for their majority.
A large number of us understand as an activist in favour of wealth distribution for social engineering you feel entitled to your idealogy.
Just one minor problem. You need votes. Best of luck. Go Facebook revolution!
February 17th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Looks like the topic of this thread has been taken off course by the usual subjects, even mentioning Mulroney's “deficit” without mentioning it was Mulroney's fiscal policies that eliminated the Trudeau deficit.
For anyone who wants to wax historically:
Under Trudeau the National debt grew from $11.3 billion in 1968 to $128 billion by 1984.
1987-93 Mulroney recorded surpluses.
Mulroney also gave us NAFTA and the GST, both of which the Liberals promised to get rid of. They didn't of course.
Trudeau created great divisions/solitudes, the West could go to Hell, he didn't need it. Multiculturalism and special interest groups were high on his extreme Left agenda which we are still dealing with today.
February 17th, 2010 at 11:03 am
I ran into a few apologist for OMAR and they were provided with another teaching moment. History and facts are rarely kind to the Liberal Party. Voters did not make a mistake in refusing to extend their majority past 2000. The question remains how much will be left if they can't retake their lost seats from the NDP in Ontario. The West has provided the LPC with 7/92 seats only. Ontario needs to step up and finish the job by eliminating another 10-15 seats.
February 17th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
EXCUSE ME. Have I fallen down some kind of rabbit hole?
It's usual for someone, when speaking politically, to talk about political parties as a group; it's expedient to not have to name every single Liberal when making a political argument. It also happens to be the case that much of Liberal philosophy, belief, and practice I strongly disagree with and what is wrong with that? Do we not have freedom of thought and expression here in Canada? Cannot someone object to the Liberal$' political activities without being charged with “hate”? To be charged with hate speech is a very serious matter here in Canada, especially given our kangaroo courts in the form of the CHRCs.
I categorically deny that I have ever spoken about the Liberal$, a party whose policies I strongly oppose, in a hateful way. BTW, Gayle, I have never referred to them as lieberals; my terms of choice are Librano$ and Liberal$, the dollar sign signifying the millions the Liberal$ stole from the Canadian taxpayers through Adscam — you know? the monies Chretien referred to as “what's a few million?”
Now scram.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Oh get a grip. I di dnot charge you with “hate speech”.
I said the language you employ when referring to all liberals or “lefties” demonstrates you hate them.
And it does.
(for point of reference, “hate speech” is when you incite hatred, not when you express it)
February 17th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Oh look. When faced with an argument you cannot address, you change the subject to talk about something completey irrelevant, complete with personal attack.
What. A. Shock.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
Dear Defunct Facebook Activist,
Your rebuttal has nothing to do with anything I said. Keep coming to the defence of the Liberal Party and their inability to regain the confidence of voters.
Best of luck next time.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Awww.
CS is trying to emulate me.
That's sweet. Pathetic, but still sweet.
Do have a good night.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Sorry Gayle,
Your are much too angry and bitter to be emulated. I also suspect very few of us have an interest or delusion of being invited to the 150 tinkers conference.
Poor tragic FB activist….hopes and dreams crushed again.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
I liked this comment. For some reason I wasn't able to register this … the joys of all this tech stuff!!!!
February 17th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Batb,
Can you picture how frustrated she is going to be with Harper and his next election victory and watch the only NDP seat in AB get snuffed out?
I almost feel sorry for her. (Operative word is almost)
February 17th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
LOL … almost!
February 17th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Actually, you are just not smart enough to emulate me.
But I see you are still trying. Good for you!
February 17th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
I ran into a few apologist for OMAR and they were provided with another teaching moment. History and facts are rarely kind to the Liberal Party. Voters did not make a mistake in refusing to extend their majority past 2000. The question remains how much will be left if they can't retake their lost seats from the NDP in Ontario. The West has provided the LPC with 7/92 seats only. Ontario needs to step up and finish the job by eliminating another 10-15 seats.
February 17th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
EXCUSE ME. Have I fallen down some kind of rabbit hole?
It's usual for someone, when speaking politically, to talk about political parties as a group; it's expedient to not have to name every single Liberal when making a political argument. It also happens to be the case that much of Liberal philosophy, belief, and practice I strongly disagree with and what is wrong with that? Do we not have freedom of thought and expression here in Canada? Cannot someone object to the Liberal$' political activities without being charged with “hate”? To be charged with hate speech is a very serious matter here in Canada, especially given our kangaroo courts in the form of the CHRCs.
I categorically deny that I have ever spoken about the Liberal$, a party whose policies I strongly oppose, in a hateful way. BTW, Gayle, I have never referred to them as lieberals; my terms of choice are Librano$ and Liberal$, the dollar sign signifying the millions the Liberal$ stole from the Canadian taxpayers through Adscam — you know? the monies Chretien referred to as “what's a few million?”
Now scram.
February 17th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Oh get a grip. I di dnot charge you with “hate speech”.
I said the language you employ when referring to all liberals or “lefties” demonstrates you hate them.
And it does.
(for point of reference, “hate speech” is when you incite hatred, not when you express it)
February 17th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
Oh look. When faced with an argument you cannot address, you change the subject to talk about something completey irrelevant, complete with personal attack.
What. A. Shock.
February 17th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Dear Defunct Facebook Activist,
Your rebuttal has nothing to do with anything I said. Keep coming to the defence of the Liberal Party and their inability to regain the confidence of voters.
Best of luck next time.
February 18th, 2010 at 1:22 am
Awww.
CS is trying to emulate me.
That's sweet. Pathetic, but still sweet.
Do have a good night.
February 18th, 2010 at 1:28 am
Sorry Gayle,
Your are much too angry and bitter to be emulated. I also suspect very few of us have an interest or delusion of being invited to the 150 tinkers conference.
Poor tragic FB activist….hopes and dreams crushed again.
February 18th, 2010 at 1:40 am
I liked this comment. For some reason I wasn't able to register this … the joys of all this tech stuff!!!!
February 18th, 2010 at 1:51 am
Batb,
Can you picture how frustrated she is going to be with Harper and his next election victory and watch the only NDP seat in AB get snuffed out?
I almost feel sorry for her. (Operative word is almost)
February 18th, 2010 at 2:14 am
LOL … almost!
February 18th, 2010 at 2:58 am
Actually, you are just not smart enough to emulate me.
But I see you are still trying. Good for you!